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Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?
Answers in Genesis ^ | 5/31/2011 | Bodie Hodge

Posted on 05/31/2011 11:34:50 AM PDT by sigzero

Mary was a virgin who was to conceive by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and give birth to the Son of God. Few in Christian realms would deny Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin through pregnancy and the birth of Christ. This was the ultimate fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah:

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14, emphasis added)

However, Mary’s virginity after the birth of Christ can become a heated debate in some circles. Though some may think this is a Roman Catholic versus Protestant view, it is not. Many Protestants, including people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, have held to Mary remaining a virgin for the duration of her life. Let’s look at the issues in a little more detail.

(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: mary; virginmary
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To: narses

I am an old timer. But I am still shocked that someone would dis his own mama so.


341 posted on 05/31/2011 8:24:36 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: lastchance

Yeah, I feel the same. Time was respect for parents was assumed. Not so much today. Even here.


342 posted on 05/31/2011 8:26:35 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: RobbyS

Very very true. And then again some things just transcend time like the fact that a marriage must be consummated to be a marriage.


343 posted on 05/31/2011 8:28:11 PM PDT by christianhomeschoolmommaof3
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To: CynicalBear
Actually, Jesus' brothers were Joseph's children from his previous marriage to a woman named Salome.

If one looks at an Orthodox icon of the Flight into Egypt done in full traditional style without Western influences, you will see St. Joseph the Betrothed depicted as an aged man (as also in icons of the Nativity), and besides him and, as one would expect, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and Our Lord Jesus Christ as an infant, a young man. That young man is St. James, titled Brother of the Lord, later the first Bishop of Jerusalem (you will recall his presidency at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in The Acts of the Apostles).

St. James is so titled, because alone among Jesus' foster brothers (a state for which the Greek αδελφός would be used), not only did he share the exile in Egypt, but also shared his inheritance from Joseph with Our Lord.

Now, for those of you who fancy that the word "only" occurs somewhere in St. Paul's exhortation to Timothy, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. . ." (possibly in place of the word "all", as that seems to be where it would go from the way self-proclaimed "Biblical Christians" seem to use that passage -- rusty though my Greek is, I am certain "only" is not a valid translation of πᾶσα), I cannot prove what I telling you, as the relevant events are not recorded in the canonical Scriptures.

The Church in this matter regards the testimony of the Proto-Evangelium of James as trustworthy as to the basic outline of the life of the Virgin Mary: her dedication to God by Joachim and Anna, her vow of virginity, her life in the Temple until reaching puberty, her betrothal to the aged Joseph as a way of protecting her vow once she could no longer live in the Temple due to ritual purity laws, St. James's sharing of the exile in Egypt. . .

(A note to my separated Latin brethren, the strapping young virile-looking St. Joseph, intent on a life of asexual chastity, depicted in Western art never lived. St. Joseph was an aged widower when he was betrothed to Mary. Nor was it helpful that St. Jerome seems to have forgotten or never learned the truth of the matter, and started the speculation that αδελφός might have been used in a loose sense to mean "kinsman", the criticism of which position various and sundry heretics use to bolster their denial of the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos.)

Quite frankly, when people use the Church's Scriptures to try vainly to disprove what the Church has always taught, I am strongly tempted to adopt the position of Tertullian, that those outside the Church have no right to use her books.

344 posted on 05/31/2011 8:35:12 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: RobbyS

You would think, though, that if Mary’s virginity were that important in the grand scheme of things, that much more would be brought out about the relationship between Mary, Joseph, the “kids”, and all that. Personally, I don’t really care if she remained a virgin, it doesn’t matter, not at all.
Mary was a mortal creature, designed, created by God to serve his purpose. That she did. But that’s all she did. She is no more special than any other of God’s creation. She did His will. As do we all.


345 posted on 05/31/2011 9:37:08 PM PDT by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; wideawake; Salvation; NYer; Coleus; trisham; dsc; Mrs. Don-o; Kolokotronis; ...
I find it interesting that Protestants accept the evangelical gospels so literally when they are, in fact, a mortal construct themselves. Contrary to programs like "Banned from the Bible," not all of the apocrypha is rejected or deemed heretical. There are many reasons why the four canonical gospels were agreed upon and solely included in the NT. That being said, there ARE somewhat contemporary writings about Mary (and her virginity) that were purposely left out of the NT, but not specifically rejected by the Church. IMO, the most important of these is the Protoevangelium of James, which was excluded because it is a "prequel" to the gospels, and does not deal directly with the life of Jesus Christ. However, experts agree that it was written sometime between 125 and 150AD, based on historical accounts that refer to it. It is the oldest source to assert the virginity of Mary not only prior to but during (and after) the birth of Jesus. If nothing else, it is an indication that early Christians venerated the Blessed Mother in ways that many (and some on this thread) now reject.

If this subject has already been brought up on this thread, I apologize. The Jesuits ruined me as a theologian, but I still like to read.

346 posted on 05/31/2011 9:56:28 PM PDT by presidio9 ("Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask rather what you can do for your country." -Cicero)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Funny!!


347 posted on 05/31/2011 10:21:11 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3

Ordinarily, yes, as a sign of the anticipation of an heir, as the purpose of the union. And probably Joseph had such an expection. But then something extraordinary happened, did it not? Something that changed his life forever.


348 posted on 05/31/2011 10:24:53 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: The_Reader_David

***Quite frankly, when people use the Church’s Scriptures to try vainly to disprove what the Church has always taught, I am strongly tempted to adopt the position of Tertullian, that those outside the Church have no right to use her books.***

Are you suggesting that I have not right to use the Bible?


349 posted on 05/31/2011 10:36:47 PM PDT by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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To: lastchance

>>This was based on Scripture. <<

No. It was based on flawed men misinterpreting scripture. That is why I don’t trust the interpretation of others. I may listen to it or read it, then it is up to me to decide for myself if I agree with their interpretation. My relationship with God is personal.

Everyone dies alone.


350 posted on 05/31/2011 11:17:23 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: irishtenor

There are many Orthodox Icons showing St James and an infant Jesus. One famous one has the Holy Family running to Egypt with James holding the gifts of the Magi.

http://hilltopshepherd.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/saint-joseph-the-role-model-of-all-men/

Sorry, I am not good enough at HTML to post the icon, but it is half way down the article. And I don’t really know what the article was about.


351 posted on 06/01/2011 5:28:44 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: SoothingDave
While I hate to do this, I just have to raise one thing.

In Jewish law, a marriage that has not been consummated is not considered a full marriage. Same with most Christian laws until very recently.

352 posted on 06/01/2011 6:39:44 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: RobRoy
But there was that excommunication of a certain heretic that had the audacity to claim the earth was not the center of the universe. ;)

Not quite. Galileo got in trouble because the idiot in his book was the Pope. Who was also his patron. The fact Galileo didn't end up dead was a novelty of the time. Pulled that with the king of France as your patron and you would die watching you innards burn. The idea that the earth wasn't the center of the known universe was pretty common by that time.

353 posted on 06/01/2011 6:44:02 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: irishtenor

Tertuallian would have said you are not (unless you are a Catholic Christian — and by “Catholic” I mean an Orthodox Christian though others on the board would mean a Latin Christian). But, notice, I only said I was strongly tempted to adopt Tertullian’s position, not that I have.

I find it vexing that in these latter days some seem to think that all previous generations of Christians, including those who themselves heard the preaching of Holy Apostles, managed to get things wrong, not individually — that surely happened — but in unison, in their consensus. Such folk seem to think Christ’s promise that the Spirit would lead his followers into all truth was somehow void down until the present day, or perhaps sometime in the 19th century when whatever innovation they are hawking, be it denial of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or the existence of a “pre-tribulation rapture”, was first conceived. In both those cases, not only the Orthodox, but the Latins, the monophysites, the Nestorians, and the original protestant “reformers” are all in agreement against the innovation.

And, as the folks who push these innovations, unlike Joseph Smith, don’t do so on the basis of adding a new revelation or “Scripture”, but on the basis of purported fidelity to the Church’s Scriptures, the vexation presents a strong temptation to adopt Tertullian’s view.


354 posted on 06/01/2011 6:59:34 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: RobRoy

If you have Christ you are never alone, especially in death.


355 posted on 06/01/2011 7:32:03 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
In the Greek original, ἕως still equals "until". Regardless of the time frame, or language, one has to contort one's thinking pretty far to make it mean "not ever, even after".

Linguistically, you really don't have a leg to stand on here. Wouldn't it be better, just to say you hold it's true because a bunch of Popes, and others said so?

356 posted on 06/01/2011 8:56:55 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has been taught from Apostolic times, and recorded since the second century in Christian writings, and was universally held among all Christians until 1500 years later. That Mary was not a Perpetual Virgin is a new false gospel that comes with the heresies attendant with protestantism.

It is you who proclaim a new false gospel. Therefore the onus is on you to prove from scripture that Mary had relations with Joseph after the birth of Christ.

That you cannot do.


357 posted on 06/01/2011 9:01:30 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: lastchance

>>If you have Christ you are never alone, especially in death.<<

What I mean by that is that you will not have your wife, your kids, your priest, or even those who died at the same time you did. It will be just you and Him. You will not be able to say, “but my priest said...”


358 posted on 06/01/2011 9:16:22 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: RobRoy

I misunderstood. I won’t be saying anything as I expect I will be struck dumb by His glory and majesty. I will however be listening.


359 posted on 06/01/2011 9:34:57 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I can do anything I want, and so can you - including believing that sex between a husband and wife somehow lessens the stature of the wife, and that there’s a queen of Heaven.

Thanks for at least finally admitting that the basis of your argument is appeal to authority.


360 posted on 06/01/2011 9:35:02 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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