Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Regardless of what any group or single individual or gov’t or religion thinks or plans, they WILL follow God’s plan, whether they realize it or not...
Really? But the Bible tells us that the Rapture involves Jesus appearing in the clouds to take His bride with Him. He never touches the earth. So that really can't be counted as a "coming", now can it?
So, I ask you yet again, where did I ever say that Jesus was going to return three times?
how many times will Jesus physically leave heaven before the world is destroyed? the Bible says once, how many times do you say?
How many times will he leave Heaven? The Bible says three times, with one literal second coming.
The fact that you deny and discard the Rapture Scriptures doesn't mean that those Scriptures are not true. They existed long before you came on the scene and they will be here long after you're gone.
Jesus comes once in the clouds to take His bride to be with Him before He sends judgment, and once to return to the earth physically.
It's amazing what one can understand when one doesn't think oneself wiser than God and when one doesn't consider oneself to have the divine authority to pick and choose which Scripture is truth and which are lies.
Why do you deny the Scriptures that detail the Rapture? Why do you dishonestly twist that Scripture into something it's not? Why do you claim that the Rapture is a literal coming to earth when Scripture is clear that it's not Jesus coming to earth? Why do you deny those Scriptures?
Poppycock!!! And I say that will all the charity I can muster for your religion...
I accept the King James Bible as the Bible God gave to the English speaking people...AND, those translations that were translated from the KJV...
There is no connection whatsoever with the KJV and those 200 plus translations out there that originated with those manuscripts that your religion claims for its own...
The source of the KJV and your bibles are in different locations with different peoples passing them along...
Whether you accept that or not makes absolutely no difference to the facts...
So are you now going to try to claim that the Old Testament is either not true or irrelevant?
you know you are losing an arguement when you have to put words in my mouth. what about the OT being fullfilled don’t you understand?
Jesus is reigning now, it’s a shame you don’t realize it.
learn history, where did the 27 book NT canon come from?
i guarantee it did not come from whatever sect you belong to ( see, i can be charitable too! )
the fact is the Catholic Church received the books, copied the books, chose the books and compiled the books. facts are stubborn things.
Let me remind you of what you posted:
don’t you realize David was a type of Jesus and Jesus reigns on the throne of David?
OT = types and shadows
The issue is whether or not God is finished with His chosen people. You could provide no Scripture to validate your belief that the Jews have been kicked to the curb, so you give me some nonsense about David being a prototype of Jesus.
No one put words in your mouth. I asked you two specific questions: Was David a Jew or a Christian and are you claiming that the Old Testament is irrelevant since you glossed over all the Old Testament verses I posted which state clearly that it will be the eternal throne of David, a Jew, which Christ will rule from. It's proof positive that God is not finished with His people, that He has a plan for them which restores them to a relationship with Him and gives them positions of "princes" during His Millennial Kingdom.
Nobody put words in your mouth. You were asked questions to which you have no answer.
Jesus is reigning now, it’s a shame you don’t realize it.
Really? Jesus said that during His reign there would be no more war, He will settle disputes between nations from Jerusalem, there will no more hostility between people and animals and between animal and animal, and the earth will be restored to it's original glory.
So who is right and who should we believe? You or Jesus Christ? You really expect people to believe that Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem now? Are you serious?
david was a jew.
for the believer, there is peace with the Father thru the Lord Jesus Christ.
quit saying i don’t believe the OT. i will say again, the OT was fullfilled by Jesus. Jesus is done with corporate Israel, individual Jews can and have over the years left Judism for the Church, just like the Irish, Germans, Japanese, etc.
Jesus doesn’t look at DNA, He looks at who is added to His Church.
Jerusalem is another type of the Church, and yes, Jesus is ruling there.
It might be embarrassing to recount the evolution of the reformers interpretation of sola scriptura. The meaning of it has changed over the centuries.
Camping is an disgrace as well as the doctrines of rapture and other solas lending to contrived self interpretations.
It is time for the evangelicals to worship Jesus as their personal savior and cease and desist from worshiping themselves.
Non biblically sourced? Denying the word of God?
In John 14:26 we see that Jesus inspired the Apostles with His Word. John 14:26, “But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.” (ASV) Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be given so that the Apostles will have brought to their remembrance all that Jesus taught, i.e., Jesus wants to pass on to the world through the Apostles not their wisdom, not their insight, but His own Word! Jesus, remember, is the high point of God’s revelation. Jesus turns to the Apostles and says, “The Spirit will bring to your mind everything that I have taught.” The Apostles were spokesmen for Christ, authorized to speak His Word, not their own, but to have brought to their remembrance what He had taught.
Even our Lord Jesus Christ, when not appealing to His own inherent authority, clinched His arguments with His opponents by saying, “It stands written!” or “Have you not read” in the Bible? He said, “Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me.” John 5:39 (ASV) In Jesus’ day, Jesus acknowledges that the appropriate approach to salvation was to search for it in the Scriptures! And you know, that in Jesus’ day, the scribes had about as much authority as has ever been given to human tradition. And yet, Jesus pointed them to the Scriptures, not to the oral tradition, not to the authority of the scribes, but to the Scriptures. And then He said, “The Scriptures bear witness of Me!”
In the New Testament, the “spirit of error” was to be identified by comparing whatever the prophets are saying to the teaching of the Apostles. In I John 4:6, the Apostle John says, “He who knows God hears us!” That’s the standard; what we have taught! In I Corinthians 14:37, Paul says, “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.” And yet, even the Apostles called for the Church to test their own instruction according to the written revelation of God, according to the Scriptures which were in hand.
Why did Paul commend the Bereans? What were the Bereans doing? In Acts 17:11, you’ll read of this commendation because (he says) “they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” i.e., the things taught by Paul. Paul commends that; and he’s an Apostle! He’s got ‘Power of Attorney’ for the Lord Jesus Christ. He speaks with the authority of the Savior Himself! And yet, even with that Apostolic authority, Paul commends them, because when they wanted to test what he was saying, they went to the written Scriptures to see if these things were so.
In I Corinthians 4:6, we have what amounts to a virtual declaration of the Protestant doctrine or principle of Sola Scriptura! I Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, “Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” Paul says, “Brothers, I have applied (I’ve used a figure of speech) I’ve applied these things (I think he’s referring here “these things” about pride in men, or in their ministries) — I’ve applied these things to myself and to Apollos for your benefit in order that you might learn by us,” the saying, “not to go beyond the things which are written.
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
Need more scriptural proof? I’m sure you would follow the “church fathers” advice wouldn’t you?
"They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith"
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
"I beg of you, my dear brother to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else."
- Jerome (Letter 53:10)
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Need more? I’ve got lots more if you need! I’ll follow the words of the Apostles and Jesus Himself thank you very much.
You can read more at: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/bahnsen.html
When one feels compelled to resort to honking, stilted bloviation in an attempt at sounding authoritative, one would appear to have lost the debate before one started it, bronx2.
Had Harold Camping relied upon Scripture alone, he would not have made a fool of himself and he would not have provided so much fodder for mockery, from the mainstream media, from unbelievers and from those who mistakenly see an opportunity to play a cynical game of one-upsmanship, as if one’s own particular variant of Christianity rejects the Rapture, when one’s own does not.
Thank you for posting this.
You're going to need to produce the Scripture which contradicts the Scripture I provided that gives no doubt that God is not finished with Israel. Until you can do that, you are just another run of the mill denier of Scripture who substitutes your own opinion for God's Scripture and elevates your own opinion above what God has stated.
Were the Irish, German and Japanese specially created by God from one man for the purpose of blessing the nations and bringing the Savior into the world?
Did God declare the Irish, German and Japanese to be a holy, set apart people unto the Lord?
Did God ever say to the Irish, Germans and Japanese:
But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine! (Isaiah 43:1)
or this:
You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, o that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. (Isaiah 43:10)
or did He say to the Irish, Germans and Japanese:
The people whom I formed for Myself will declare My praise. (Isaiah 43:21)
or this:
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him ith all your heart and all your soul.
When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice.
For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them. (Deut. 4: 29-31)
Who does this refer to?
In that day shall Israel be … a blessing in the midst of the earth (Isa. 19:24)
When did God ever say this about the Irish, Germans, and Japanese?
Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, to which they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land. (Ezek. 37:21).
or this:
Then He said unto me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost; we are cut off on our part.’ Therefore, prophesy and say unto them, ‘Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel’” (Ezek. 37:11–12).
Did Ireland, Germany or Japan fulfill this prophecy?
Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. (Isaiah 66:8)
Does God say this about Ireland, Germany or Japan:
I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land. (Joel 3:2
Did God ever make eternal covenants with the Irish, Germans, or Japanese? Did God swear to bless those who bless the Irish, Germans and Japanese and curse those who curse them?
Israel is mentioned close to 3000 times in the Bible. Where is Ireland, Germany and Japan mentioned?
Only by denying the Bible and the plain, clear Israel-centric focus from Genesis to Revelation can you attempt the absurd claim that Israel is no different than any other nation.
Jesus doesn’t look at DNA, He looks at who is added to His Church.
Which of the Scriptures that I have posted that prove you dismally wrong are you prepared to deny to try to give yourself the illusion that you're right about God discarding His chosen people? Which ones?
Jerusalem is another type of the Church, and yes, Jesus is ruling there.
Got the supporting Scriptures?
You’re welcome. Those who claim that the scripture is not the ultimate authority are in grave danger and that’s according to scripture itself. If it can’t be proven by scripture it is against scripture.
I have listened to all the augments from the sola crowd and their best cherry picked bible verses support the written word but not sola scriptura. Once you grasp this concept recognizing the vast difference between biblical support for the written word but no support for sola scriptura you begin see how your rant fails. How could the bible support sola theory when this myth was not invented until the reformation.
You use the same tired arguments as most of the sola adherents but fail to exercise the logic to discern the difference elaborated above.
It would be better for you to review the history of Sola Scriptura and see how the meaning of this inane theory has evolved since the reformation. This evolution of meaning is as embarrassing to your post as any Harold Camping , the poster child who argued your positions using similar bible quotes. How sad.
Put you trust in Jesus not some imperfect sola theory.
Camping is the poster child for those addicted to rapture, sola scripture myth nonsense which merely serves to assuage their egos not the Kingship of Jesus.
Perhaps the inane theory of the solas which produces rapture and other prideful self interpretations is the product of Satan.
From the beginning of this nation Christians have been inventing cataclysmic prognostications which never happen.
There will be an end to each of our lives so the dispensationalist crowd predicts the end of the whole world instead of their own. It is sick twist in the human heart and imagination for the sola , self interpreting crowd to foist on us .
Some Catholics such as Martin Luther saw the truth and tried to turn his/your religion back onto the right track...
Fortunately, many Catholics came back to the truth but the powers that were, went on their perverted way...
Your religion is a traitor to the Scriptures AND the early church fathers who believed the scriptures...
Tell ya what slick. You “go beyond what is written” and I’ll heed Jesus words and go back to what is written in scripture. I’ll heed Paul’s commendation to the Bereans when he said, ““they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” You go ahead a follow the “traditions” of men. I’ll stand on scripture. You go ahead and stand on the shoulders of the Pope who claims to stand in the place of Christ. See how that works out for ya.
Plutarch was a Greek historian, sort of that period's Indiana Jones, who traveled about collecting experiences and writing about them. An interesting article he wrote was when he came upon a pair of holy men who were upset because the oracles had decayed and stopped speaking. Without going into the details, the oracles of the ancient world, stopped "working" shortly after the apostles went through the city "binding" evil spirits. Coincidence?
Athanaseus, in the 4th century, wrote something similar in his short book On the Incarnation. Every country where the gospel went, the old oracles ceased.
"I saw Satan fall like lightning."
"Now will the ruler of this world be cast out!"
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