Posted on 05/20/2011 9:25:23 PM PDT by Salvation
Why am I not surprised that the definition of charitable alludes some.
Theology hard.
Yet here you are.
I'm trying to be gracious about this. Don't click on it, if you don't want to read it. Some of the rest of us are interested.
How beautiful are Your tenets O Lord. May I always listen to them with a joyful heart.
Bless Mr. Barber for trying and bless you, my dear FRiend, for hoping that we could get somewhere. But, alas, the anti-Catholic swamp of vitriol is impenetrable here.
Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification
and
By grace through faith we are made righteous/justified. Righteous works done through the working of the Holy Spirit within the life of a child of God perfect and complete our sanctification.
The former inculcates the efforts of man in making him justified in the sight of God. The latter sees that it is by grace and grace alone received by faith that we are made righteous. No one can logically say that a Christian, once justified and born again into the family of God, is then released to live in debauchery. If they do, they are flat out wrong and un-Scriptural to boot. God did not save us so that we have a license to sin - "God forbid!", says Paul.
The Christian is indwelled by the very Holy Spirit of God and he is a down-payment on our final inheritance with God for all eternity. We are "Sealed until the day of redemption." and we have the promise of God that we will never be lost, cast out or plucked out of his hand. He is holding us, not us holding onto him. From Hebrews 12 we are told:
God Disciplines His Children
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
God will never leave us nor forsake us but will, as the ultimate good Father, discipline and teach us the way he wants us to live all for his glory.
Absolutely, I believe others recognize our faith by our deeds and James 2 makes that point very clear:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
A dead faith is a faith that is unproductive, it is unobservable by others. The example he uses is in finding a brother cold and hungry and telling him, "Go in peace be warmed and filled.", I'll pray for you, in other words. Does that do him any good? Or is it better to take him in and give him clothes and feed him a warm meal? That is faith in action. It is made manifest by the deeds we do for others. The further example of Abraham being made righteous. We know from Scripture that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was justified by his faith before God and his actions proved that his faith was genuine. It has always been that way with God. That is why without faith it is impossible to please him.
But did God need to see Abraham's actions in order to know he has faith? No. God sees the heart of man, he alone knows if faith is real. We can only see the outside and we can only observe a person's actions. We SHOULD be able to know them by their fruits, Jesus said, but I think we can agree that outward manifestations of goodness do not necessarily mean the heart is really changed. God desires we follow him in living a holy life set apart from the world, but only he knows our true motivations.
Oh, please. Can't people voice that they don't agree with something on an OPEN thread without being "anti-Catholic" or their words "vitriol"? What makes threads "impenetrable swamps" is gratuitous rhetoric.
Can such faith save them?
And, why do we need others to see our faith? Can others save us?
Matthew 6:1-4 (But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
Faith compels works. If one has faith, one has works and one does these things to glorify God and not himself and not as proof of faith to others.
Works are born from love of God and love of neighbor.
The two commandments Jesus cites as the greatest.
It is not that by my works I will be saved, for I am saved only because Jesus died for my sins. But, if I believe, then works are a part of that belief, that faith. One is not true without the other.
If you are doing works so that others may see your faith, you are doing them for the wrong reason.
Of course we are not in disagreement on this. When James asks the proverbial, "Can faith save him?", who is the "him"? It is the one who is cold and hungry. Can just my faith, and not my actions, save him from being cold and hungry? The obvious answer is no. So then I totally agree that it is by the merciful, love and grace of God alone that can save me. I can never do enough good works to ever pay my sin debt and only the blood of Jesus Christ redeems us.
Consequently, when I live my life in obedience to Christ's commands, I do them out of love and gratitude for such an unspeakable gift that he has given me. Because if righteousness comes from works, Christ died for nothing.
Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that our motivation for our good works should NEVER be to be seen by men, however, when we DO demonstrate the sincerity of our faith by our lives, people cannot help but see and glorify God, not us. I hope you have a blessed Sunday.
Thank you, but I must respond to one small thing in your post.
The question in James is posed after he asks, suppose one has faith but not works. The question is in regards to the one whose faith is without works or whose works are without faith.
May your day be blessed as well:)
>>I’m trying to be gracious about this. Don’t click on it, if you don’t want to read it. Some of the rest of us are interested.<<
I did want to read it. Problem was there was no “it” to read. It was a teaser for a whole series. That is what I was commenting on. And it reeked of “false scholarship”.
I’m not trying to be gracious. I’m trying to be blunt.
Oh, please. Can’t people voice that they don’t agree with something on an OPEN thread without being “anti-Catholic” or their words “vitriol”? What makes threads “impenetrable swamps” is gratuitous rhetoric.
&&&
I apolgize if you thought those words were directed at you, as they were not. Your comments were well stated and intended for civil debate. There are some on this forum, however, who just jump in with hateful anti-Catholic comments.
Apology humbly accepted. Thank you. I am really, sincerely trying to make sure that my words are “always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that I may know how to answer everyone.”. I don’t always succeed.
Have a blessed week.
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