How to Read the Bible as a Catholic [How? Don't take indv. verses as "literally true", says Pope]

National Catholic Register ^ | 05/05/2011 | Cindy Wooden

[SkyPilot]

is = isn’t

[SkyPilot]

Nothing from you about what the tearing of the veil means. Nothing about what is required for salvation.

[cothrige]

Let's allow reason to seep into this. You know, and I know, that part of the Pope's "vicar of Christ on earth" mantra is veneration by Catholics. That is not the doctrine of Evangelicals.

No, you keep sidestepping and trotting out new unproven claims. First you insist that Holy Father is adoration. You can't prove it, but you say it is so. You then pull out two pics of people kneeling and lying prostrate and insist that they show adoration. You can't prove it, but you say it is so. And now you insist that Vicar of Christ is adoration, and guess what. You can't prove it, but you say it is so.

And none of it changes the core facts. If a picture of two people kneeling in front of a baptist preacher does not demonstrate worship because it requires consideration of their intent and motives, then you cannot at the same time claim that a picture of the same action in front of the pope is damning evidence of intent and motive without any consideration. You simply cannot have it both ways, and suggesting otherwise is just making egregious assumptions based on personal bias and prejudice. No Catholic I have ever met has ever worshiped any creature and only the true God. Your insistence is so far from reality it only says anything about you, and nothing about Catholics.

So tell me, if you met the Pope tomorrow, would you bow before him and kiss his ring? Would you kneel before him?

Absolutely. And none of that is adoration. Reverence and respect take many different forms in many cultures, but adoration requires both intent and motive. You cannot accidentally worship.

Why? Because the bible says! Did you read what I posted to you about Peter in Acts telling the man to get up? Why didn't you respond to that?

I didn't see it posted to me, but a response is easy. The verse says very clearly "And it came to pass, that when Peter was come in, Cornelius came to meet him, and falling at his feet adored. But Peter lifted him up, saying: Arise, I myself also am a man." The offense here is not just kneeling, but kneeling in adoration. They are not the same thing. One can kneel for many reasons, but worship is intentional and from the heart. Cornelius was worshiping Peter, and Peter told him to stop.

That veil separated the Holy of Holies in the Temple, but it was ripped - and know we have direct access to God through His Son Jesus Christ. We don't need a priest. We don't need a Temple.

Actually, the bible doesn't specify which of the two veils of the temple were torn. It may have been the one between the Holy and the Court of the Israelites, the one between the Holy and the Holy of Holies, or both. However, in any of the cases what is symbolized is not that there is no need of particular ministers, but rather that the separation between sinners and God has been torn down. In Mark the same word is used for torn both in this event and in describing the opening of the heavens during the Lord's baptism. The tearing of the veil is about the opening of heaven rather than ministry.

I didn't know Christ, because the Catholic church never told me about who He really was, and what salvation was all about. Now I do, and I am most grateful.

Of course the Catholic Church told you about who he really was. You just don't like what you heard. You said "this saying is hard, and who can hear it."

[Religion Moderator]

Do not accuse another Freeper of telling a lie, it attributes motive, the intent to deceive. It is "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[cothrige]

In fact, why didn't you respond to the question I put to you: do you believe we are saved by faith alone?

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. We are saved by grace, though faith, as the scriptures say. We are not saved by faith alone as is clearly stated by St. James, Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

[Rashputin]

Please explain again how you were a Catholic for thirty-five years but did not know that the people in the photo you posted were prostrating themselves before Christ given that the Ehcarist was present.

[Cronos]

your quotation from the catechism is out of context and is not the complete statement (which is as I pointed out your errors in not reading scripture as a whole)

Please do not leave out the main part of 846 which states

all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body

you do understand the difference right, the salvtion comes from Christ? Where did Christ add through the Church?

• He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
• [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)
• [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

A Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental would recognise this as saying Salvation (though coming FROM Christ ie through GRACE alone), also requires baptism, repentance, the Eucharist as WELL as faith.

[Cronos]

Salvation is by GRACE alone not by faith ALONE

Let's repeat a basic Bible lesson:

1. What does Jesus say saves us?
   • Matt. 24:13

     13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

   • Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
     35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
     36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
   
   Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

2. 1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

3. Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

[Cronos]

Wait a minute. You still haven't acknowledged that you have been wrong quite a few times already in this one post:

1. You didn't realise that priest during ordination bow to Jesus Christ, Our Lord and God in the form of the Eucharist. You state that this is because you did not go to an ordination -- ok, so then why shout out wrong conclusions about something you don't know? You could have easily checked the facts for yourself instead of
   1. either jumping to wrong conclusions or
   2. being fed such wrong facts --> which one was it?

2. Then you repeat over and over that the Bible condemns bowing --> I showed you that this is lack of scriptural knowledge on your part --> have you acknowledged that your conclusion was wrong?

3. Then after this has been pointed out to you twice, you repeat it again saying no worshipping -- but that's the conclusion we already told you -- just as Saul was not worshipping Samuel, neither is someone bowing to the queen of England or the pope worshipping them -- you understand the difference?

4. Then you make the gaffe of asking about the 10 commandments and how they are written --> I point out to you that
   1. There are actually 14-15 commandments in Ex20:2-17 --> why do you limit yourself just to a formulation if you don't read scripture?
   2. This is just a formulation of 10 for remembrance,which is why
      1. Jews and Lutherans share the same list of 10 -- do you think Jews and Lutherans also distorted the scriptures?
      2. the Orthodox formulation is copied by the Reformed and others, yet I see the reformed accusing our Orthodox brethern with the same iconoclasmic glee as they accuse us

   So, you have consistently been repeating false information and when you have been told how wrong your statements are, you jump to another false statement

   Why are you doing this? Acknowledge that you made the following errors:

   1. prostration before Jesus Christ during ordination
   2. bowing is in the Bible
   3. bowing is separate from worshiping -- that's in scripture
   4. The 10 commandments formulation are just formulations

   Do not use the liberal tactics of shouting out wrong statements and then dodging when being told how wrong your statements are -- I don't blame you, but whoever led you away from the Church.
   
   

   There are many wolves who pray on simple, believing yet undereducated Christians and feed them the above lies and many others.
   
   

   The problem is that these wolves can only use the most basest, easily, provably false lies.
   
   

   Do a little research and you will realise that all that you have been taught recently by those outside The Church about The Church is false --> Come home

[Elsie]

So, it's not faith ALONE.

Take it up with Jesus:

So, it's not faith ALONE.

John 6:28-29 (niv)

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[Elsie]

... the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:

[Elsie]

Do you see that by works a man is justified

So justified now means SAVED?

[cothrige]

Justification is the conversion of a sinner from unrighteousness into a child of God. We could engage in polemics and debate whether it is an ongoing process or a onetime event, the necessity of sanctification, or detailed definitions of each concept and how various theological traditions view each differently. However, for the basic purpose of what James is discussing, to be justified is to be saved.

[Elsie]

So, I guess it’ll boil down to what JESUS alledgedly said vs what James alledgely said.

[cothrige]

Sorry, but I don’t follow your meaning. What do you think the Lord “allegedly” said, and what do you think St. James “allegedly” said, and how are they “allegedly” contradictory?

[Elsie]

Both statements are posted above.

Some folks claim that these were uttered by the folks mentioned.

[cothrige]

Oh, the folks. And they claimed things were said by folks who said things posted above. Why didn’t you just say so?