Posted on 04/23/2011 1:27:26 PM PDT by NYer
Where is Christ after he dies on Friday afternoon and before he rises on Easter Sunday? Both Scripture and Tradition answer this question. Consider the following from a Second Century Sermon and also a mediation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
An Ancient Sermon:
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him – He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” [From an Ancient Holy Saturday Homily ca 2nd Century]
Nothing could be more beautiful than that line addressed to Adam and Eve: I am your God, who, for your sake, became your Son.”
Scripture also testifies to Christ’s descent to the dead and what he did: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison….For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:6).
Consider also this from the Catechism on Christ’s descent to the dead, which I summarize and excerpt from CCC # 631-635
[The] first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell [is] that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead.
But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there [1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6; Heb. 13:20]. Scripture calls [this] abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek – because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God [1 Peter 3:18-19].
Such [was] the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they awaited the Redeemer: It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior …whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.”[cf Psalms 89:49; 1 Sam. 28:19; Ezek 32:17ff; Luke 16:22-26]
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
[So] the gospel was preached even to the dead. The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”[1 Peter 4:6] Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying, destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage” [John 5:25; Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9].
Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”[Heb 2:14-15; Acts 3:15]
What's that saying? The devil can quote scripture?
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.Which Jesus used to show the Pharisees that he could say he was the son of God without Blaspheming even if they did not believe him to be the savior. John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If you believe the Bible, and you believe that Jesus said we are not God's children you have a problem, and I can't help you.
Delph
Yawn.
There is no “liberal math” in calculating 3 days from Friday, rather it is typical to Ancient Near East and Hebrew PRE-SCIENTIFIC ways of calculating.
To this day, Jews understand a day as STARTING at sundown (which is why “evening and morning” is mentioned in Genesis 1 for the days of Creation). Hence, Jesus died Friday afternoon, which is day 1, day 2 is Friday night/Saturday, day 3 is Saturday night/Sunday. No great mystery here, IF we don’t go plugging in our Western scientific-precision assumptions, completely out of context, into an ancient text.
The same logic is also behind the seeming (small) contradictions in the 4 Gospels’ resurrection accounts. Each one tells a slightly different version with the events being slightly in a different order and persons varying a little....and there appears to be no attempt by the Evangelists to harmonize these accounts. Can they be harmonized into one coherent historical account....yes, but not easily. To the original writers and readers though, that wasn’t important....4 slightly different eye-witness testmonies were accepted, as they are, without questioning them....as they totally agree on the main point: Jesus was bodily resurrected, and, they witnessed that with their own eyes.....
3 persons, one in essence, each being fully God but the Son not being the Father, nor the Spirit, and the Father not being the Son nor the Spirit and the Spirit not being the Father nor the Son, yet all being one....goes beyond all human experience and our attempts at logic. Not illogical mind you...rather super-logical.
The time tested medieval illustration "shield of the Trinity" is probably the best, but even that one isn't quite right....but it has to do....
We should expect the nature of our infinite, eternal, all powerful, holy and loving God to be more than our finite minds can grasp.
One of the best observations I've heard about the holy Trinity is that in this doctrine alone does the idea of love being fundamental in the nature of God make sense. Here's why:
Love must have an object, without a beloved, (even if just in memory) there is no real, actual, self-giving, love.
A non-triune God would have no object of love until he/it created the World....therefore love itself would not be an eternal part of his/its nature.
Only the real triune God is able to have love an essential part of His nature from all eternity since, though one, they are also three, and love has always had the beloved within the 3 persons...and out of that super-abundance of love and life and holiness, our God created (NOT out of any need or loneliness...the exact opposite!).
This lack of an essential love-nature in a "monad" god....may also be one reason why Islamic society is so lacking in love and compassion too--as logically, for their "god" Allah, love cannot be essential to his/its nature.
Yes; it is quite funny!
(Ya STILL ain't getting any traction with your GIRL comments; are you?)
I get hounded by the ignorant.
Those aren't hounds, but pit bulls that you are still poking at with a stick and complaining 'cause they growl at you.
You might show some 'knowledge' if you'd quit asking QUESTIONS (Oh Superior Bible Scholar that you are) and pontificate down to us trogladytes.
Poor MORMONs, gotta personalize EVERYTHING that mentions MORMONism SO much, that they try to take a thread, POSTED by a CATHOLIC, referencing CHRISTIAN scripture:
LC, I have made it clear I am not trying to hijack this Catholic thread about a Catholic Topic.
So much bullshit in one sentence!
I am gobsmacked!
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods...
FWIW I believe the MORMONs, Accepting this scripture as it stands, believe that all men can become GODS.
I KNOW the MORMONs, if they accept the following 'scripture' as it stands, believe that all men can work their way to GODHOOD!
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
I can see it now; at the yearly Bishop interview...
Yup, I got banned at FR; so I MUST be Temple Worthy!
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
The beginning of each new day was marked at sunset for thousands of years, so that was NOT a new thing. But to do 'labor' on a sabbath, or one of the feast high sabbaths would have been considered a sin. Christ had already had a run in with the religious community for doing what they considered 'labor' on the sabbath.
And the religious community did not consider Christ to be Emmanuel, or God with us, as that is what He was to be named. And since it was God that made the 'sabbath' which means 'rest', it was/is impossible for Christ to have sinned on the sabbath. And because at 'sunset' on Passover day began the first day of the days of unleavened bread it was a 'high' sabbath. Christ would have been placed into the tomb before the sun set so there would be no laboring on the 'high' sabbath. And it would have been from the moment He was placed into the tomb that would have started the 'three days and three nights' clock.
The end of 'three days and three nights' would have take place on the 'sabbath', not any part of the first day of the week. There was nobody there 'watching' on the sabbath, as we are told the women came before the dawn on the first day of the week and the tomb was empty.
According to John 1:1 In the beginning (that would be Genesis 1:1) was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.
Christ was the only Begotten Son of God, and was to be called Emmanuel, means, God with us.
And in Matthew the WORD says the ONLY sign the religious bunch had was Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah (Jonah) was *THREE days and *THREE* night in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be *THREE* days and *THREE* nights in the heart of the earth.
There are NOT *THREE* nights from Friday to before the sun rose on the first day of the week. I do not care whose counting methodology near or far east, old, or modern Western scientific assumptions. And there is NO way there are *THREE* days from Friday near sun set to before the sun rose on the first day of the week.
And the day after the Passover was a 'high' Sabbath and no labor would have taken place.
NO account of what took place in the 4 Gospels' alters or lessons that 'sign' Christ had already given the religious leadership. Either one believes the WORD or they make up what they want to believe and label it 'Christian'. Time and time again the works, words, and deeds done and say recorded that the flesh man did or said becomes the doctrine of modern religionists... kinda like BamBamKennedy quoting the doctrine of Cain twisting slightly by saying he was our brother's keeper.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Three days
He did not go into the tomb until near 'sun set' on Passover DAY. The next day that began at sunset was a 'high' sabbath, NOT the routine 7th day sabbath. So IF given the times we are told that took place during that Passover day does not amount to a 'day' in the tomb, would be measured in maybe hour or even minutes. And he was not even in the tomb, when the women came before the sun rose on Sunday. NO part of Sunday or the 'first' day of the week is even in the calculation for a 'day'. Because the counting begins when HE was placed in the tomb. And we know without any question he was not in the tomb before the sun rose on the first day of the week.
AND what gets ignored in the 'counting' is that there is the 'high' sabbath that began at sunset on Passover day... and then of course the weekly 7th day sabbath, that would be ended at sunset when the marking of the first day of the week began.
Usually the accurate way of counting begins at the 'time' when the flesh body was placed in the tomb. NOT because tradition decided that the 6th day of the week was made holy and good. It was not from God or His son that made the 6th day of the week a holy day.
We know that the soldiers went around breaking the legs of those crucified because it was the evening of the "preparation day". See:
John 19:39-42 (New International Reader's Version)
Nicodemus went with Joseph. He was the man who had earlier visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought some mixed spices, about 75 pounds. The two men took Jesus' body. They wrapped it in strips of linen cloth, along with the spices. That was the way the Jews buried people's bodies.
At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden. A new tomb was there. No one had ever been put in it before. That day was the Jewish Preparation Day, and the tomb was nearby. So they placed Jesus there.
There was always a day of preparation prior to a Sabbath. This was because travel was not allowed on the Sabbath. So if the next day (Thursday) was the extra Sabbath due to Passover it would have been necessary to not have to be burying someone on that day. That is why it was expedient for Jesus to hurriedly be buried on Wednesday evening so that preparation for the Sabbath could be done. That takes care of Thursday, then Friday was a normal Preparation Day for the Saturday sabbath. That is why the women could not return to the tomb until Sunday. Good discussion, thanks.
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I think what we are seeing here is the hard and fast hold "religion" has on people so that, even in the face of strong evidence, they will not let go of their customs. I think what probably started out as a reason for a three-day weekend (combining all the days of the Passion), has now become a stubborn excuse for rejecting anything that might prove a "religion" could have made a mistake.
The important thing, of course, is that Jesus really DID die on the cross, he was buried and he rose again from the grave fully alive. Similar to December 25 being the celebration of Jesus' birth. We really don't know what day he was born, so that day is as good as any, I guess.
I missed your prior post. The surface of man's traditions has barely been addressed. Christ never participated in an Easter celebration. The earlier instruction to Nicodemus regarding what is required for any to 'see' the kingdom of God, with the answer given in John 3:13, the instruction on the mount of transfiguration, and Solomon's writing in Ecclesiastes 12. Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...
Even the established method of to know year in and year out when the Passover occurs is left by the wayside. I am a nobody, student, 'seed' planter of truth and it really is sad to see the blindness, willingly displayed in regard to what is actually Written. Christ flesh journey, and all that followed is a fulfillment of prophecy. Even Christ taught that Jonas (Jonah) was a real literal event and my guess would be that few walking this earth today believe it is anything more than an allegory.
No, in reality du - your are the one having trouble with the bible.
We are God's creation (Colossians 1:16)
However, only those born again are "Children of God" (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).
We are adopted into God's family (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5)
And the unsaved referred as a "child of the devil" Acts 13:10
Jesus also made it clear to the Pharisees that He was from heaven, while the Pharisees were not.
Typical du - select ONE verse out of context and build a strawman upon it.
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