The Price of Everything

reformation21 ^ | April 2011 | Carl Trueman

[topcat54]

This tyranny of the immediate has even impacted the Roman church. For all of the rhetoric about Rome being Rome and never changing, the fast-tracking of John Paul II to sainthood, along with said late Pontiff's own predilection for making saints as often as some of us order take-out pizzas, would seem to indicate a certain affinity with the need for immediate gratification or significance that is such a part of modern consumerist life. Rome has in many ways led the way on the personality cult of the contemporary church rather than resisted it. That it does it with more style and better music than the Emergent Church or the Trinity Broadcasting Network is not a mitigating factor.

[topcat54]

[RnMomof7]

And that is why church historians play such an important role and our cynicism is such a boon. Church history keeps things in perspective. Through reading the texts and studying the actions and events of the past we can truly say that we have seen it all before. Thus, whatever it is that the latest guru is suggesting, it definitely will not work as well as expected, probably will not work at all, and anyway it will be a hundred years or more before we can say whether it made a real difference or not.

Thus, the next time someone comes along and tells me that a movie by Mel Gibson is the most significant contribution to church culture since the Apostle John laid down his stylus and parchment, my eyes can glaze over in confident knowledge that what I have just been told is complete drivel.

Indeed...

[sr4402]

The Roman church gave "all salvation" to Mary in 1849.

Besides making her the source of "every grace" and "every hope", according to Catholic doctrine it is God's "... will, that we obtain everything through Mary" (Ubi Primam 1849). Thus for the Roman Catholic, according to Piux IX in 1849, their salvation is by Mary.

BUT, according to Acts 4:10-12 "by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Accept no false Gospels under Mary, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for Salvation from sin and death. There is no other way.

[Lee N. Field]

my eyes can glaze over in confident knowledge that what I have just been told is complete drivel.

I like Carl Trueman.

[lastchance]

“That it does it with more style and better music”

Sorry this may be one of the funniest things I have read about the Church recently. I love her dearly but more style and better music is all too often the exception.

To witness true travesty along these lines view the video service done by Call to Action (dissident group) that used Giant Puppets of Doom and liturgical dance. Awful, awful, awful and truly awful are the kindest words I have.

[dangus]

What's the matter? You can't write a full sentence? Why so shy about the first part of the sentence that you quote "will, that we obtain everything through Mary?" Why can't you write, "For this is HIS will, that we obtain everything through Mary." Oh, I know. Because if you did, people just might not take the sentence as contradicting Acts' declaration, "[n]or is there salvation in any other." Because if you didn't delete the first part of the sentence, it would be quite plain that Mary is not the source of anything at all, but merely the willing, lovely, creature through which Christ entered the world and poured forth his graces. I understand that there are a lot of doctrines about Mary that Protestants don't like: the Immaculate Conception, the Queen of Heaven, the Assumption, her Perpetual Virginity. Which makes it baffling when people twist and contort to accuse Catholics of things we DON'T believe in.

[sr4402]

Dangus, The quote is from the Ubi Primam. Literally, is says, just as you quoted "For this is HIS will, that we obtain everything through Mary.". This in conjunction with the sentance above it "every grace, every hope and all salvation" is a command from Pope Piux IX to receive salvation by Mary. Also, I am not finding your quote "[n]or is there salvation in any other." anywhere in the Ubi Primam of 1849. So your argument is found null and void.

Need I remind you that this is a world wide forum and that displays of anger are not conducive to arguments and believe you are capable of better reasoning.

As whether this is a legitimate question, I have recieved notification that many Maryian Catholics believe exactly this.

[dangus]

Actually, the quote is from Ubi Primum. I find it so amusing the way something gets proof-texted so much that y'all are quoting it right and left on FR, and no-one even bothered to actually read it closely enough to catch a mistaken title. The quote, "nor is there salvation in any other" was from your citation of Acts, by the way. I was merely pointing out that since the will is HIS, the statement doesn't contradict Acts: Mary is NOT the source of salvation, according to Ubi Primum (which incidentally, means, "Under the First,") but merely Christ's chosen means of dispensing grace. Like I said, there's plenty for Catholics and Protestants to disagree about; Protestants don't have to twist wordings around to come up with stuff. And Ubi Primum also shows no trace of moderation in its exaltation of Mary! >> As whether this is a legitimate question, I have recieved notification that many Maryian Catholics believe exactly this. << What is a Maryian Catholic? I have received notification that your notification is really a Communist agent. :^D

[Cronos]

Where exactly did you get it from? Firstly, as Dangus pointed out it is Ubi PrimUM, secondly, as he pointed out, you or your source left out the main part of the sentence, which is

"For this is HIS will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Why did you leave it out?

as Dangus said Because if you didn't delete the first part of the sentence, it would be quite plain that Mary is not the source of anything at all, but merely the willing, lovely, creature through which Christ entered the world and poured forth his graces.

That post # 4 of yours, that post was duplicitous.

[sr4402]

"For this is HIS will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Why did you leave it out?

Because it is duplicitous, it says the same thing, that you as a Catholic "obtain" everything through Mary. Piux IX says it is God's will that you do so. Therefore it proves my point.

Salvation, Grace, Mercy and more are obtained by Mary according to this document.

Attempts to obfuscate it are not working.