THESE are not "words of Jesus!
Posted on 03/21/2011 7:01:14 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
By Elder D. Lee Tobler
Of the Seventy
D. Lee Tobler, "Words of Jesus: Resurrection to Ascension", Ensign, Aug. 2003, 36–39
“Ye shall be witnesses unto me … unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
As Jesus was taken from the cross and lovingly prepared for burial following the customs of the Jews, His disciples wanted to protect His body from intrusion or harm. They wrapped His body with fresh linen, and a great stone was rolled into place to seal the doorway of the tomb (see Matt. 27:57–60). Three days later Jesus emerged victorious over death from the tomb. For the next 40 days He taught and ministered to His disciples in what must have been an intensely powerful experience, preparing them for His Ascension into heaven.
The Savior’s words during these 40 days provide a wonderful road map for us as we contemplate His assured triumphal return to earth. The Lord gave at least three highly significant messages to His Jerusalem disciples: (1) His Resurrection was real and all are inheritors of that wonderful gift; (2) His Atonement was completed, but there would be requirements for us to fully partake of its blessings; and (3) His disciples were responsible to carry the message of His gospel to the world.
To both believer and unbeliever, the evidence on the morning of the third day was compelling. The stone was rolled to the side. The dead Christ was no longer in the tomb. However, even with that evidence, the Lord chose to confirm His Resurrection in numerous glorious visitations. The first was to Mary Magdalene, who mourned outside the tomb. Two angels appeared to her and asked, “Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
“And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
“Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master” (John 20:13–16).
There is a great lesson to be learned from Mary Magdalene’s experience with the resurrected Lord. We learn that if we truly seek Him, if we truly want to know Him, we will find Him and know Him as He really is. Mary had become a disciple through conversion and had followed the Savior faithfully unto His death. By her own experience, she then knew that He was alive.
After this first confirmation of Christ’s Resurrection, others occurred. The risen Lord walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They spoke together of the rumored news of angels appearing and the Savior’s missing body. “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?” He asked the two disciples. “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” and His Resurrection (Luke 24:26–27). The Savior then appeared to Simon Peter and afterward to the 11 Apostles and others. “Peace be unto you,” He said. “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:36, 39).
While all these confirmations of His Resurrection are of great value, perhaps the most graphic is the Savior’s appearance to Thomas and others eight days later. Thomas had doubted that Jesus was the resurrected Lord. “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands,” Jesus invited, “and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God” (John 20:27–28). With this confirmation, Thomas was also given a gentle but clear reproof: “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).
Thomas’s experience carries a particular message for us. If we want to know sacred things and experience all of the rich blessings related to those sacred experiences, our faith must be stronger than our curiosity.
There were other remarkable confirmations of the Lord’s Resurrection, including His appearance, teachings, and meal with seven of His disciples on the shores of Galilee. “Lovest thou me?” was His question to Peter (see John 21:15–17). “Follow thou me” (John 21:22) was His command. By the time of His Ascension, there were no doubters of His immortality among His faithful disciples.
The Savior was eager to help His disciples understand that while the Resurrection would be universal for all of Heavenly Father’s children, there was a difference between becoming immortal and inheriting eternal life. In John 14, the Savior had already explained the difference to them:
“In my Father’s house are many [kingdoms] 1 : if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
“And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
“Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:2–6).
Thomas’s question (see John 20:25) still lingers in the hearts of many of our Father’s children, and the Savior’s answer remains today the only answer: No son or daughter of our Heavenly Father will be able to return home to Him except by becoming a partaker of the Atonement of Christ. When the resurrected Lord taught the disciples in Galilee, He made it clear why all the world must hear the gospel: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16).
Matthew further records the words of the Savior on this occasion:
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19–20).
Therefore, we must conclude that partaking of Christ’s Atonement for sin is conditional; it is dependent upon our being baptized and accepting His “way” and living His commandments. From the New Testament we learn that His way begins with a living faith in Jesus Christ as Redeemer of the world.
This kind of faith leads us to the covenant of baptism, when we take upon us His name and promise to keep His commandments. Other covenants follow. We learn, as evidenced by His early disciples, that our lives must be consistent with our covenants. Only then will we receive that peaceful assurance from the Holy Ghost that we can become partakers of the Savior’s Atonement. “John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost,” Jesus told His disciples (Acts 1:5). In the end all ordinances must be validated by the Holy Spirit of Promise (see D&C 132:7). It is only when the Lord’s Atonement is applied to us individually that we become free of our sins and worthy to enter the presence of our Heavenly Father.
On the shores of Galilee and on the Mount of Olives, the Savior gave the assignment or calling to His Apostles that they (and others whom they would call) should carry the message of resurrection and redemption to the world. The Lord first introduced the assignment with an inquiry, referring to the meal He proffered His disciples: “Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs” (John 21:15). Jesus asked him a second time and received a similar response. Then He asked “the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:17).
These early disciples had to make a critical choice. Would fish and bread, or other earthly goods and materials, take priority over the matters of heart and soul that are required for those who seek eternal life? If they had let earthly things become top priority, it would have been difficult to accomplish the more critical task, that of teaching Heavenly Father’s children throughout the world—the spiritual feeding of His sheep.
Then just before His Ascension into heaven, the Lord repeated the call: “Ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
As members of the Church and disciples of Christ, we must come to terms with this challenge today. At a time when the prophets of God have called all members to be missionaries to neighbors, to family members, and to those in distant lands, will we choose to feed the Savior’s sheep or will we choose the good but lesser part? The increasing numbers of prepared young men and women and senior couples engaged in full-time missionary work are a heartening testimony that there are many who understand and feel the call to serve. Many members remaining at home are increasingly joining the ranks of those who understand the need to teach the gospel at home as well as abroad. We are learning that disciples of Christ constantly look for ways to share this great message.
As we prepare for that future day when the Savior returns and reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords, these particular teachings take on increasing urgency. As we study the New Testament and pray for light and wisdom, we will be reassured of our divine origins. We will find great joy in the reality of resurrection, redemption, and exaltation through the Lord Jesus Christ. We will seek to carry the message to all, that our joy and their joy might be full and that we will all be able to partake of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ.
I find that most interesting.
A little background, I'm an ex-mormon, was quite active for some years, had a temple recommend, was a melchizidek ph, sealed to my mormon spouse (still very active), son born under the covenant, etc.
I left mormonism due to a variety of factors, but the primary one being that I do not believe that man can become a "God", nor that "God" was once a man. There are other factors, but I think you get the point.
As far as "bashing" or "belittling", etc. I would ask; What qualifies as debate vs. bashing, or anti-mormonism? When one is posting from legitimate LDS sources and then linking to the source, how can things be misleading or taken out of context?
If I posted my opinion, that's one thing. But linking directly to LdS sources is clearly another, would you agree?
I seem to recall responding to you once before and not getting a response. It's likely I'm mistaken, if so, my apologies.
There are many things in your post that I disagree with, nothing that personally offended. That is why I asked if you were willing to debate them, not "argue" per se. Although, I can see where many may have a hard time with "debate" vs. "argument" when the line can be so thin.
I know a lot about where you're coming from. I'm there, but from a slightly different perspective/direction, I'm an apostate to the mormon church. My wife and I have our differences, we have some discussions now and then about theology and doctrine, but we can do so without it becoming heated.
I will hold my "fire" so to speak, I don't want an otherwise amicable interaction to devolve. I would like to offer this partial response to your previous post though. No reply or response required or solicited, just "food for thought".
[JAKraig] - ”I don’t fail to see evil in Mormons because of my wife, although I believe her to be a very true Saint. She tries hard to live her religion, I wish I was as good a person as her. Mind you I try to be a good person, I just don’t think I am willing to put as much effort into it as she.”
I agree with your sentiments in regards to my wife. I truly believe she's a wonderful person, otherwise, why would I be married to her? But something in your statement struck me.
Keyword = “effort”. How much “effort” JA? I’m married to a mormon, she's a temple worker, so that in and of itself should indicate to any who are familiar, how faithful she is. I see how much “effort” is expended and then I hear my wife tell me things like; “I hope I’ve done enough to get to heaven.” “I pray that I’m good enough to get to heaven.”, etc. Is this what is taught in the Bible? That believers in Christ must go through all this “effort” and still remain in doubt? I don’t believe that is the sign of a loving and merciful God. To keep His children confused. Satan is the author of confusion. God is clear on the matter;
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
No “effort”, no works, once you truly have a change of heart, your "works" are an outward manifestation of your conversion. I’ve been trying to teach my wife this for sometime, yet she is caught in the Chinese finger trap of Mormonism. She has to believe in the “restoration” or all of her “efforts” have been for naught. Mormons believe you must earn “credit” and that Jesus will pay the balance on the “debt owed”, but cannot nor will not tell any at what point you know you’ve done “enough. IOW, you’ll only find out once you reach judgment.
Grace is a matter of recieving by faith. You cannot earn it. Nothing you do will merit you more of it. There is no greater sacrifice than what Jesus did on the cross. And thanks be to God- you can simply receive that by faith. And faith is a posture of rest. Not of work. It's like saying to our kids at Christmas, "Here is a great gift I'm giving you. It's free after all you can do. You do not deserve it. It's so nice you can never pay for it. Now go get me all of your money and do extra chores and we'll call it even." That's not much of a free gift, is it?
That is what I find offensive with mormonISM, that they have attached a "price" to the Grace that God gives freely.
FRegards,
SZ
Having been “there”, and now being “here”, I can emphathize with the difficulties one is confronted with when one sees beliefs held by a dear one being seemingly “abused”.
But at the same time, I’ve come to know that no matter how much I love my family, I am under an obligation as a Christian to contend for them based on my faith. Mormonism impacts me and my family directly.
What I’ve learned since leaving mormonism compels me to be a vocal PITA.
Many don’t like that.
“I hope I’ve done enough to get to heaven.” “I pray that I’m good enough to get to heaven.”, etc
______________________________________________________
I have never heard my wife say such a thing. She Follows God. She wants to do all she can because of His love for her by allowing himself to take upon Himself her sins and everyone else’s. I don’t think she worries about going to Heaven, she worries about me making it there.
To Mormons there are different levels of Heaven (I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know) and they all want to sit at the highest level. For many, probably your wife included, only the best will do. For them sitting in the presence of God is all that will satisfy them. They realize that they could do less and still go to Heaven. They also believe that in Heaven there are many mansions and they want a good one. I guess the way I say that it sounds offensive, I don’t mean it to. I think their ideas are pure enough. It can’t hurt to be good. I don’t think they think of Heaven as a prize but as an opportunity to continue advancing.
They think that the promise to Abraham was to have a continuation of his seed so that his descendants would be as countless as the grains of sand on the sea shores or the stars in the sky. Mormons think they can share in that promise but only if they go to the highest degree of Heaven. The Heaven they believe in is totally different than other faiths. Their continuing to grow and progress with their spouse or spouses has a lot to desire when you think about it. If we were abducted by aliens and sent to a world where we could have every pleasure we could ever desire and never have to work at some point, perhaps after thousands of years it would seem limiting, like prison, like they were dammed. Without children to watch grow and progress life would be a lot different than it is here now.
I don’t know what we will find in Heaven, the Mormons say they do and it seems nobody else much talks about it. If my wife is right I will be there with her. While everybody talks about how they say only Mormons will be there their whole reason for Temples is to make sure that everyone can be. My wife is a Temple Worker too. She is convinced that somehow in the next life people like me will see the errors of our ways when we have a chance to fully understand “The Gospel” and we’ll come around.
I personally would love to think that I could be with my wife forever. I would hate to have to get used to somebody else. In the rest of Christendom there are no spouses in Heaven. It is a big difference but I don’t think it hurts to believe in it or hope for it.
I personally don’t worry too much about Heaven or Hell. If God is Just and He does what He says He will do in the New Testament I will be accepted by Him and when the Judgment day comes and everybody sees how bad a person I was The Lord will put His arm around me and proclaim that I am His. That He purchased me with His blood. I will not have to follow the father of lies into the pit prepared for him and his followers. All that being said I don’t have a clue as to what to expect from that point, I just know that making it to that point will be a good thing and not making it to that point will not be a good thing.
What The Savior did was unbelievably unselfish. I could not in good faith say I believe in him and not try to follow him. In other words if I don’t have any “good works” then I simply don’t have any faith.
Any Mormons who think they will get a better seat because they went to church more often than another is sadly not understanding of Mormon teachings. My wife says we all have different abilities. We can’t all do the same thing. The important thing to her and she says The Savior is that we are moving in the right direction, that is towards The Savior and not away. She says it is like a ladder, as long as we are going up we are ok.
To her whenever a church leader asks her to do something, like work in the Temple, to her it is the same as The Savior asking. She loves the Savior, she would do anything for Him. She is not doing anything for a better seat but simply out of love. I really believe this about her.
Not all Mormons are as good or as understanding of Mormon Doctrines as my wife. She is special, but most I have met have this love of the Savior just dripping off of them. So to keep beating a dead horse, how can anyone who loves The Savior this much not be a Christian?
If being a Christian is only defined as being a “Roman” Christian then that is something different. Mormons do not accept the Apostles Creed, but then again nobody did before the 3rd century and surely we would call the early Christians, Christian. Mormons realize they are square pegs in a round world. They don’t seem to mind being called “different”, but you can really get under their skin when you call them non Christian.
There are probably Mormons around here, I apologize if I have said something that mis portrays Mormons, I don’t mean to. I would certainly not mean to make any fun of their beliefs and apologize if I have said something that offends. I really do believe that Mormons are as a rule good, God fearing people.
“l am a Christian and I strongly disagree with you. They might not believe what you believe but they are surely Christians. they act like Christians are supposed to act, they teach Jesus Christ to all the world without getting paid. they are perhaps not traditional Christians as those descended from the Roman Church, but Christians they are! I find your warning very distasteful! “
Then you do not know the scriptures, FRiend.
How can a group that believes in MILLIONS OF GODS be Christian? God Himself says there is ONE GOD.
How can a group that believes Jesus is a created being be
Christian? The Bible teaches He is God and has always been God.
How can a group that denies the Gospel of Grace and substitutes mormonic worthiness be Christian?
Any cult that denies the God of the Bible, denies the Son
and denies the Gospel is a heresy worthy of the strongest
condemnation. You were warned. If you do not heed the
warning, that is up to you.
best,
ampu
“I don’t fail to see evil in Mormons because of my wife, although I believe her to be a very true Saint. She tries hard to live her religion, I wish I was as good a person as her. Mind you I try to be a good person, I just don’t think I am willing to put as much effort into it as she.”
That explains it all!
Emotion has trumped objective truth. You are well on your
way to becoming a cultist yourself...
In fact, by his own words JAKraig has great regard for Mormons and Mormonism.
Has he ever said why exactly he doesn’t make his wife eternally happy by becoming one? Why, if he thinks it is such a wonderful Christian religion, doesn’t he support his wife?
You won’t get an argument out of me regarding mormons being good folks. I know all that you mention and more.
I’m sorry to say, based on your current status and mormon teachings, you will not be with your wife in heaven unless she chooses to come down to your “level of heaven”. Which means she will leave the presence of “god”. It does “hurt to believe in it” in the sense that attention is given to rituals and beliefs that are not biblical.
The Bible also teaches that we will not be married in heaven. Are Jesus’ words to be dismissed because JS said otherwise? For mormons, that is the “hinge point”. One must have complete confidence and faith in JS in order to believe in what mormonism teaches/believes.
I’ve had mormons use rationalizations such as “If x then y.” or “It only makes sense, right?”. No, it doesn’t always work this way. That’s why we’re to test what we hear against the Bible. But here is where mormonism creates their “out”. AoF - “as far as it is translated correctly.”. Yet none can tell any which parts are and are not “translated correctly”. The dichotomies present within the doctrine are just too many and too much.
But for me, the entire premise of mormonism is built upon a foundation of sand. A foundation that begins with a very dubious “prophet” of extremely questionable, behavior, morals and beliefs.
The entire complex of mormonism is suspect because of him. All that aside, trying to expose mormons to facts either hidden from them or not looked for, shouldn’t be construed as “bashing”, “hate”, “antimormonjihad”, etc.
SLC sends out 52k+ missionaries a year, not counting all the ward and stake missionaries to tell their message with impunity. To tell others that Christianity was in complete apostasy for centuries and that all they hold dear is false.
Why can’t a few folks in the FR Religion forum discuss/debate/reveal what they know about mormonism without being denigrated or being accused of many vile things?
I’m recently removed from the LdS church, so many things LdS are anathema to me. When I see them, I want to correct or dispel what I see or read. At first, I was very club fisted or ham handed. Now, not so much, I hope.
I don’t want to belabour the point, or as a Catholic FReeper said to me once, give you the impression that I’m trying to “mug you” into conversion.
Blessings to you and yours,
SZ
Then you do not know the scriptures, FRiend.
How can a group that believes in MILLIONS OF GODS be Christian? God Himself says there is ONE GOD.
How can a group that believes Jesus is a created being be
Christian? The Bible teaches He is God and has always been God.
How can a group that denies the Gospel of Grace and substitutes mormonic worthiness be Christian?
_______________________________________________________________
I really need to go home.
Perhaps they believe in Billions of gods or Trillions I don’t know. However many they believe in there is only one God that matters to them, that is the God of this creation, of this universe and of His only begotten Son. In all my dealings with them I have never heard them mention any other god. They don’t know of any other god. The whole idea of other gods comes from what they say we would be if we inherit all that God had. Christ says that we will be joint heirs with Him. Is Jesus Christ God, is He God because He inherits all His Father has? If he were God why would he need to inherit anything from anybody? If we inherit all that His Father has along with Him, just like Christ says we will then what are we? Certainly we are not God but if we become like Christ and like God then perhaps their doctrine is not so repugnant, we would be gods compared to earthlings surely.
Even God called Jesus His Firstborn.
Mormons don’t for a minute deny the Gospel of Grace. They don’t however believe in “Once saved always saved” that many Christians preach. Get saved so you can commit all the lechery you want without having to pay for it. NO, they don’t believe that. They do believe that no matter what you do you can never be saved except for the good grace of our Savior Jesus Christ.
I appreciate your not beating me up. I appreciate a civil conversation.
If my wife has to come down to get me I am probably lost :)
You are correct that if you can’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet then you can’t be a Mormon.
I don’t have any problem with “as far as it is translated correctly” because every church seems to have it’s unique translation or meaning of various scriptures.
I have listened to many preachers what most of them have in common is that that they have a lot of unique ideas.
I remember at my fathers funeral at our church (Methodist at the time), the minister asked if I had any particular scriptures I would like for him to use. I did, it was about Job knowing that although worms eat his eyes . . . etc. that he would see God with his own eyes. The minister said he could not use that scripture because there would be some who would think that meant that there would be a literal resurrection. I then gave him a few more (actually at least 10) that referred to a literal resurrection and he refused to use any of them. From that point on I have had little to do with ministers and little trust in what they have to say as far as translating or interpreting the scriptures. I can read. Sometimes when I read the spirit whispers to me of the truth of what I am reading and how I understand it and I will not have another person tell me how I don’t understand it after that happens.
So “as far as translated correctly” I understand, it is not an issue to me.
Thanks for not beating up on me.
Now why would I do that? ;^)
"I appreciate a civil conversation."
As do I.
Sorry to hear about your father. I guess that's why I'm not a proponent of "organized religion". Too many doctrines, teachings, etc. that can be used for all the wrong reasons.
"I can read. Sometimes when I read the spirit whispers to me of the truth of what I am reading and how I understand it and I will not have another person tell me how I don’t understand it after that happens."
Like you, I figure if I stick with what's in the Bible, I can't go wrong. Although I attend a non-denom church that teaches out of the Bible and uses some very well known and respected Christian writers like A.J. Tozer to supplement.
As far as the "translation" issue being anathema to an ex-mo like me, I guess it would make more sense if one had been "conditioned" if you will, to place more faith and credence in the BoM vs. the Bible due to the AoF. It's all still very "fresh" for me.
Blessings,
SZ
If you believe in more than one God, you have denied the most important thing God revealed to Israel.
If you believe in more than one God, you have distorted who God is - omnipotent. As such, you have distorted the image of God and made Him into an idol.
Mormonism is a combination of pagan beliefs, condemned heresies and a distortion of the image of God - yet you claim to be a Christian and you defend Mormonism.
THESE are not "words of Jesus!
I shake my head in disbelief, you have it appears zero understanding of mormonISM and what they teach and profess.
Either you are desperate that your wife is not lost or your profession of being a Christian is bogus. I haven’t decided as yet which.
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