Posted on 03/12/2011 6:27:13 AM PST by Gamecock
“Are we saved by grace or by faith?”
By grace thru faith, not grace thru election.
Gamecock was honest. If election is individual and not corporate, and if what Calvin says is true, then we are saved by grace thru election. Election is the key - with it, you will irresistibly be saved, without it, you are irresistibly damned.
And that makes Jesus a liar.
If election is the determining requirement, then it is grace thru election.
But scripture says again and again it is by faith: “Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
“Arminians believe the natural man can understand the things of God, obey and believe. Arminians believe men rebirth themselves; that they make themselves to differ.”
Arminians believe what scripture says: we are lost, blind, captive, rebels against God. But God in his mercy reached down, and like the Philippian jailer who wants to know “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, we respond, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
I challenged you Dr E well over a year ago to find a single verse saying that saving faith is a gift given by God to enable belief. Have you found it?
For any lurkers who want to understand what corporate election is (which in turns explains why the verses cited by Calvinists are consistent with the teaching of Jesus and Peter and Paul, I recommend:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/
and http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/1106
So we are saved by grace.
Is grace merited or freely given?
I challenged you Dr E well over a year ago to find a single verse saying that saving faith is a gift given by God to enable belief. Have you found it?
I not only found it and many others then, I have given you several verses tonight.
You ignore them now as you did then.
What you fail to answer is the question who will believe ?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
And so the question remains R... who will believe ? Those that are called by the Father...He elects us..we do not elect Him
ARMINIANISM'S DEPERSONALIZATION OF THE GOSPEL
ARMINIANISM: THE GOLDEN IDOL OF FREE WILL
From all the links above we see that Arminianism is simply Romanism minus the dresses.
AMEN!
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
A clear reading of scripture shows that God is the God of salvation..not men
Just as eve desired to be a god so do most men
When we rest on Gods word and what it actually says we see that we owe not one thing to our intelligence, or cleverness or holiness for our salvation..salvation is all 100% of the Lord.. not us...
Yes that is pretty much what I’m saying. In a nutshell Protestants have a lot of mistaken ideas about what Roman Catholics actually believe. My whole point is that we really should make the effort to understand what they believe and respond to that and not our own mistaken ideas.
Thanks. A lot of us have noticed that fact. For awhile.
Would having faith in Jesus be pleasing to God? Of course it would. Yet Scripture clearly tells us that it’s not possible for us to please God without the Spirit’s indwelling.
Romans 8:8-9 “Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.”
Why does the natural man hate the sovereignty of God so? Who are you oh man to answer back to God?
Would having faith in Jesus be pleasing to God? Of course it would. Yet Scripture clearly tells us that it’s not possible for us to please God without the Spirit’s indwelling.
AMEN!
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
I haven’t ignored the verses, but I’ve already gone thru them with you over a year ago. I see no reason to repeat myself with you or the usual suspects.
The links I gave provide ample information for any lurkers with an open mind.
You cite, for example, John 10:
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
And it is true that God (Jesus) regularly tells men that they will never believe. The Apostles did so a few times, and I’ve done so once...although I don’t know if my response was from God or from my flesh. And why would someone say such a thing?
Paul gives the answer:
“9For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
Note what Paul says - that “although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
According to your theology, that is impossible, for you claim that God must first irresistibly give man life, and then he irresistibly gives them faith. But Paul says they “knew God”, but rejected him, and then “their foolish hearts were darkened.”
For such a one, there is no reason to preach the Gospel. The one who has will be given more, and the one who has not will lose what little he had. So it is with the revelation of God to men. Those who respond will receive more, and those who reject will lose what they had.
If y’all wish, you can read more here:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/Landstrom.Proof-texting-Presuppositions-with-John-6.44-65
You might also want to read:
Here we read about the importance of listening receptively to the words of God, and with a humble and hungry heart (“ears to hear”). These Pharisees were not “granted” to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven because their heart had become dull and they did not have “ears to hear.” They were not faithful with the light of the scriptures which they had been given, therefore they were not given more, for he who is unfaithful in little is also unfaithful in much (Luke 16:10, John 5:39). Thus we see man’s responsibility affirmed, just as the talent was taken from the wicked servant because he showed himself unfaithful in little (Matthew 25:29).
You might also want to read here:
http://thearminian.net/2010/01/06/acts1348-appointed-to-eternal-life/
and here: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/49
and here: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/179
You are welcome!
This runs 48 pages, but looks to be worth the read:
“Robert Hamilton, “The Order of Faith and Election in John’s Gospel: You Do Not Believe Because You Are Not My Sheep”
http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/282
But I tend to think we run back into the problem with believing in systematic theology rather than the scripture. Scripture explicitly and clearly states that we are saved by grace thru faith, and faith is what gives us access to saving grace.
It no where says we are saved by grace thru election, or that election is the critical factor.
It says we believe to life, not that we receive life to believe. It says men can know God and reject Him (Romans 1). Yet Calvinists try to create a theology that denies all that, and the hundreds of verses about faith and believing, and makes election the only critical part of salvation. If you would drop your systematic theology texts and read the scripture, it would be plain.
But one ought to consider the warning of Jesus: “For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” - Matt 13
Or the words of Paul: “Claiming to be wise, they became fools...”
CONTEXT!
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Is Paul talking about conversion, or life after conversion?
Remember also that no Arminian believes we come to Christ on our own, but only in response to the Holy Spirit. What we deny is that it is irresistible:
“”It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.”
It is not us performing the good works in ourselves after salvation, it the the Holy Spirit performing them. He began them in us at the moment of salvation, and will perform them until the day of Jesus Christ.
At the moment of salvation, we are justified, sanctified, and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. And He works through us until the day of our redemption.
You're right...It's not about religion...It's about Christianity...
All Catholic and Orthodox Catholic posters, as well as all Christians of good will, are advised to avoid such threads as they are here to generate hate, not the love of Christ.”
Advised by you???
Sure...Christians and non Christians alike believe in Jesus...Catholics believe in Jesus...Mormons and Izlamaniacs believe in Jesus...
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Is this where you stopped reading??? There's a little more that Jesus wanted you to know on the issue...
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Everyone believes in Jesus...It's only those who call on Him to save them who will be saved...
Yep
Out side the shell there are lots of us that were cradle Catholics that were educated in RC schools that KNOW what Rome teaches
Thus it has always been
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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