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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; RnMomof7; Dutchboy88; HarleyD

I haven’t ignored the verses, but I’ve already gone thru them with you over a year ago. I see no reason to repeat myself with you or the usual suspects.

The links I gave provide ample information for any lurkers with an open mind.

You cite, for example, John 10:

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

And it is true that God (Jesus) regularly tells men that they will never believe. The Apostles did so a few times, and I’ve done so once...although I don’t know if my response was from God or from my flesh. And why would someone say such a thing?

Paul gives the answer:

“9For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”

Note what Paul says - that “although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

According to your theology, that is impossible, for you claim that God must first irresistibly give man life, and then he irresistibly gives them faith. But Paul says they “knew God”, but rejected him, and then “their foolish hearts were darkened.”

For such a one, there is no reason to preach the Gospel. The one who has will be given more, and the one who has not will lose what little he had. So it is with the revelation of God to men. Those who respond will receive more, and those who reject will lose what they had.

If y’all wish, you can read more here:

http://evangelicalarminians.org/Landstrom.Proof-texting-Presuppositions-with-John-6.44-65

You might also want to read:

Here we read about the importance of listening receptively to the words of God, and with a humble and hungry heart (“ears to hear”). These Pharisees were not “granted” to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven because their heart had become dull and they did not have “ears to hear.” They were not faithful with the light of the scriptures which they had been given, therefore they were not given more, for he who is unfaithful in little is also unfaithful in much (Luke 16:10, John 5:39). Thus we see man’s responsibility affirmed, just as the talent was taken from the wicked servant because he showed himself unfaithful in little (Matthew 25:29).

From http://evangelicalarminians.org/Election-Free-Will-Liguori-John-6-and-Calvinism-in-Fresh-Perspective%22

You might also want to read here:

http://thearminian.net/2010/01/06/acts1348-appointed-to-eternal-life/

and here: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/49

and here: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/179

You are welcome!


72 posted on 03/12/2011 8:30:54 PM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; RnMomof7; Dutchboy88; HarleyD

This runs 48 pages, but looks to be worth the read:

“Robert Hamilton, “The Order of Faith and Election in John’s Gospel: You Do Not Believe Because You Are Not My Sheep”

http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/282

But I tend to think we run back into the problem with believing in systematic theology rather than the scripture. Scripture explicitly and clearly states that we are saved by grace thru faith, and faith is what gives us access to saving grace.

It no where says we are saved by grace thru election, or that election is the critical factor.

It says we believe to life, not that we receive life to believe. It says men can know God and reject Him (Romans 1). Yet Calvinists try to create a theology that denies all that, and the hundreds of verses about faith and believing, and makes election the only critical part of salvation. If you would drop your systematic theology texts and read the scripture, it would be plain.

But one ought to consider the warning of Jesus: “For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” - Matt 13

Or the words of Paul: “Claiming to be wise, they became fools...”


73 posted on 03/12/2011 8:43:05 PM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Mr Rogers; paulist; RnMomof7; Gamecock; HarleyD; Dutchboy88
The links I gave provide ample information for any lurkers with an open mind.

Ah! the "open" mind. Where would the benefits of an "open" mind be explained to us in Scripture?

Many of us would prefer a "renewed" mind in order to "know the things of God."

Do men renew their own minds?

Some open minds think they do.

But none does. A renewed mind, like new ears and new eyes and a heart of flesh are all free gifts from God according to mercy and not debt.

The rest of your post simply touts men's ability to save themselves, and Scripture tells us men cannot save themselves; they first must be born again.

"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65

God willing, when people tire of reading links like the ones you've offered which tell men how clever and pious they are to choose correctly, they will be turned toward the Scriptures and Scriptural links which glorify God's sovereignty and His choices...

"Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast." -- Psalm 22:9

For our reading pleasure, here's brother Spurgeon on a variety of topics...

SPURGEON'S QUOTES

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34)

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (Sermons, Vol. 10, p.309)

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124)...

Amen.

87 posted on 03/13/2011 1:22:25 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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