Pastor stirs wrath with his views on old questions (says no hell)

The New York Times ^ | 4-Mar-2011 | Erik Eckholm

[OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian]

A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders

In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”

[Cvengr]

Good post, which leads to why the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is so important in understanding Him and the role He has provided for us.

[circlecity]

"If one can love something and also fear it, they can also love it and be apathetic about it."

Not without violating the law of non-contradiction. Look's like we'll have to agree to disagree about this one.

[BuckeyeTexan]

Essentially, yes. Read all of Romans 9.

God has a purpose for every life he creates. Sometimes that purpose is to be used (as Pharaoh was) to demonstrate God’s mercy to others (Israelites.)

It is important to note, however, that hell is eternal death rather than eternal torture and pain.

[BuckeyeTexan]

Essentially, yes. Read all of Romans 9.

God has a purpose for every life he creates. Sometimes that purpose is to be used (as Pharaoh was) to demonstrate God’s mercy to others (Israelites.)

It is important to note, however, that hell is eternal death rather than eternal torture and pain.

[aruanan]

It is important to note, however, that hell is eternal death rather than eternal torture and pain.

It is important to note, however, that your idea of hell as eternal death is not derived from the Bible.

[Cvengr]

From http://www.amightywind.com/hell/aboutsounds.htm

Can there really remain any doubt? 0;^)

[BuckeyeTexan]

My “idea of hell” is directly from the Bible. If you’d like to engage in a discussion of the supporting scripture, we can do so. Be careful what you tell others is and is not in the Bible.

[sr4402]

I believe scripture teaches that man inherited his sin nature through Adam.

Glad to hear it. I had to ask the question since the T has to do with doctrine regarding sin. Those who believe sin is only learned (the Semi-Pelagian position) have the logical product - Sinless Immortals. Since you believe the sin nature came upon all mankind from Adam. The next question is whether you believe God regarding Genesis 2:17 "for in the day you eat from it you shall surely die".

1) Did Adam and Eve die when they ate of the Fruit?
2) What kind of Death was it?
3) To how many of this kind of Death spread to Mankind?

[re_nortex]

Where did you read that? [everlasting punishment]

The Bible, specifically Matthew 25:41-46. I'll also add that this teaching was part of my education at a Conservative Christian college (now a university).

God's Holy Word (Revelation 21:8-10) clearly states that unbelievers will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The Almighty Lord is not responsible for the endless suffering. That is strictly the fault of the sinner, who is deserving of eternal punishment.

[RobRoy]

That is the type of post I’ve had to write from time to time. Especially in the religious discussions. ;)

[RobRoy]

Go here http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
And search for Matt 25:46. It is discussed there. Frankly, pretty much every single scripture “proof” of everlasting punishment that is “felt” unending is discussed there.

My best friend and ex pastor (who now works at a Christian university) told me this a few months ago: most Christians spend their first few years as a Christian studying scripture to form their personal theological beliefs and the rest of their life studying scripture to defend it.

I am not like that, but my challenge is in the opposite direction. That is, I hear some new interpretation and immediately think, “Wow, I never thought of it that way before.” However, I do study to see if it has enough veracity to alter my perspective on Christianity. It is how I went from being a strong Pre-tribulationist to a Mid tribulationist (aka post-trib, pre-wrath).

Fact is, a lot of us believe what we believe about the bible because of something someone told us in our “formative” years, much as liberals believe what they do because of what a respected college professor told them in College. I do not respect ANY man in that way so I’m at least more immune than most people - but still must deal with it.

The article I linked above caused me to, for the first time in my life, really STUDY this concept - and I am convinced. I do believe there is something going on there that both “sides” are wrong about, but I’ll find out after I die. In the meantime, I present the gospel to people and avoid the “turn or burn” message. That message is also what has turned off a lot of would be Christians. That alone should cause one to at least ask the important question about the veracity of the interpretations of scripture used to support it.

[RobRoy]

>>The Almighty Lord is not responsible for the endless suffering. That is strictly the fault of the sinner, who is deserving of eternal punishment.<<

But what does the word “eternal” really mean?

If I take my car to an “eternal” junk yard, I could say I took my car to a junkyard which lasts for eternity where its car crushers never sleep. However, we know that what happened to my car is that it was parted out, crushed and melted down. It’s long gone.

And would an omnipotent God really create someone who He knew would sin so that He could put him somewhere where he would suffer for days without end, a trillion times a trillion, and in ways beyond the person’s comprehension? And it the answer is “yes”, where is the proof of that in the bible that is not highly suspicious in its use of language as well as context?

Sure, it’s what I believed all my life, because I was told so - until I studied it myself. And my relationship with my Creator is my responsibility and nobody els’s. Everybody dies alone. Even those vaporized in Hiroshima.

[re_nortex]

In the meantime, I present the gospel to people and avoid the “turn or burn” message. That message is also what has turned off a lot of would be Christians. That alone should cause one to at least ask the important question about the veracity of the interpretations of scripture used to support it.

The preacher at the church of Christ where I worship addressed the topic of hell along with eternal damnation of endless punishment for sin. This was shortly after 9/11, thus making the case all the more compelling after the horror of those days.

He explained that part of the boundless joy we Christians will experience in Heaven is the full awareness of the fate of sinners suffering forever. One of the many rewards of Eternal Life in God's Heaven is the knowledge that Divine Justice is constantly being served for the damned.

[gogogodzilla]

Exactly my point. To assert that your beliefs are more valid than mine is the height of pride and folly.

And to base a religion around the words a man wrote about another man (ie: John, Luke, Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc)... instead of taking the direct word of the Lord (Deuteronomy) is the highest of follies. Saying, in essence, that man knows better than G-d.

[Cvengr]

God the Son is God. His Word is true. This includes the Scripture of the New Testament.

[Cvengr]

Consider in God’s Plan how He provides for man.

He provided the Law to Moses as recorded in Deuteronomy. He also provides His Word in the books of the New Testament and directly from Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.

He also provides His Word to every believer via a reborn human spirit via God the Holy Spirit upon hearing the Word of God.

Faith in the believer is His Work.

When a believer studies His Word and God the Holy Spirit makes that thinking understood through the reborn human spirit to our soul, slowly sanctifying the believer, it isn’t simply a random belief system independent of God. it isn’t academics, rather it is an education, a way of thinking developed in us from the spirit first, not the soul first.

It is a work of God. That faith/belief (same word in the Greek) is His Work in us.

In this situation, a person who remains in faith through Christ, accepts the beliefs and faith of God, not belief independent of God. Such belief is more sound than thinking independent of Him.

Believers are not basing their religion around words a man wrote, but upon the Word of God providing a protocol for man to have a relationship with God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

[HarleyD]

Actually, Bell doesn’t say in his book that there is no hell, nor is he a universalist.

From the article...

Rob Bell, ... describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”

If he doesn't say it, then I would like to know what he's saying or what your definition of hell is.

[RobRoy]

>>He explained that part of the boundless joy we Christians will experience in Heaven is the full awareness of the fate of sinners suffering forever. One of the many rewards of Eternal Life in God’s Heaven is the knowledge that Divine Justice is constantly being served for the damned.<<

That would not bring me joy. If they were simply annihilated, that would be enough and, I would consider, just (but I’m not God so I defer to Him). Then again, maybe in the afterlife we have a different attitude about watching others suffer for merely not accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

This may be why I am not a member of the Church of Christ, though I was music director of a Christian church for a few years.

[re_nortex]

That [observing the suffering of the damned] would not bring me joy. If they were simply annihilated, that would be enough and, I would consider, just (but I’m not God so I defer to Him). Then again, maybe in the afterlife we have a different attitude about watching others suffer for merely not accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Indeed it's hard to fathom what inestimable joy we'll have in God's Glorious Heaven. Our early minds simply can't grasp such things at this stage and even the great hymn, Amazing Grace give only mere a glimpse.

Nevertheless, it's not hard for me to imagine a supreme bliss while observing the endless punishment and eternal suffering of Saddam Hussein, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Stalin, Ted Kennedy, Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and other such wicked men.

[mongrel]

I can’t speak for Bell, but I guess you would have to consider which part of that long description he considers toxic. I know he doesn’t reject every signal part of that statement. From what I have heard from him before, it is the question of whether the punishment of hell is eternal in effect or eternal in duration.

If you want to see more about Bell’s writing and speaking style, this blog describes it well: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/rob-bell-is-not-a-universalist-and-i-actually-read-love-wins/