Posted on 02/12/2011 6:20:06 PM PST by topcat54
Joel McDurmon, hosting today's show for Gary DeMar, exposes End-times Dysfunction (E.D.) for what it is. Joel shares with doomsdayers how they can get relief from their paranoia and troubled souls.
Do you believe the following:"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have not hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
Sit down.
It's God's word. Yes, we most certainly believe it.
We do not, however, understand it to say the things you think it does. We read the 1 Thessalonians text, for instance, and read about the resurrection, and the catching up of believers to meet the Lord in the air. We do not see anything in the text about it being a secret, silent affair, separate from the main action. It is part of the complex of events that occurs, on the Last Day.
Hmm. I'll play too. Do you believe this?:
that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Or this?:
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Surely you do. And yet, it throws a complete monkeywrench into the standard dispensational model.
You know (surely you do) about the principle that one interprets unclear passages in light of clear ones?
One more: And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
It means what it says.
you condemn both Calvin and Arminius, Augustine and Erasmus, Sproul and Charles Finney, Spurgeon, Hodge, Wesley brothers, Isaac Newton, Tyndale, Luther, Edwards, Whitefield, Barnes, J.I. Packer, B.B. WarfieldI'm not impressed with dead Bible deniers. Save that garbage for someone who cares.
You must have a sadly withered library. Whose on your shelves? Anybody beyone Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, and Hal?
"Bible deniers"? Assuming you even know who those people are, that's beyond insane.
>>It’s God’s word. Yes, we most certainly believe it.<<
Ok, so let me get this straight. You believe that Jesus will come at the battle of Armageddon to destroy the armies of the world and at the same time we meet Him in the air to be with Him forever? Do we go after the battle, during the battle or what?
from:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/
In recent years, many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D.1 There have been attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby.
Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.
He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.
This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4
The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5
This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today.
The validity of any view can only be measured by the Biblical text itself. For a more complete discussion of these issues, see our Audio Book, From Here to Eternity.
I’m looking too.
May end up phoning Impe or the Deo’s, if I can.
Have written the Deo’s before with no response. They are reportedly beseiged with emails etc. routinely.
So, fine, lay the Dead Sea Scrolls one aside.
The post I just posted documented such writings about the Rapture back to 300 something AD.
Y’all are still terminally WRONG.
I thought engineers were better at analyses than that.
Im not sure what they believe, if they even know, other then that they arent ready for Jesus to come and want to take over the world and have success here.
"Bible deniers"? Assuming you even know who those people are, that's beyond insane.
Calling William Tyndale, the scholar, the father of bible translation to the laity and sadly, martyr strangled and burned at the stake for his faith - a "Bible Denier".
The Dysfunctionalists are indeed heretical.
quod erat demonstrandum
INDEED.
Let's see how many days/weeks/months/years go by before they post an apology for such brazen falsehoods.
Good job Quix. We can now officially brand you "Heretic". Did you even bother to read the source materials for that article? Here you just take any article written by any fool that you just happens to agree with, and you swallow the poisoned Kool-Aid down in one big gulp.Here is one of the documents listed in the bibliography If you were capable of reading and had any sort of personal dignity you would quickly distance yourself from these early mystics and gnostics whose doctrines were already condemned by the Apostles. One of them, the Shepherd of Hemas, reads like a Joseph Smith on some real bad LSD - I'm sure you will quickly latch on to that demonic vision since it clearly supports your Dysfunctionalism. What a heritage! Demonic dreams!
But lets take a look at Ephraim the Syrian:
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. . . . Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
I'm sure it read better in the original. Nevertheless the author makes some rather interesting claims from this text.
The Pseudo Ephraim text in English is a fascinating read. Strangely, for an allegedly Dispensational teaching, there doesn't appear to be a Millennium earthly or otherwise. Maybe that trivial event slipped his mind while he was busy writing a vivid description of what ultimately became yet another failed prophecy by the Futurists.
And it appears that your Dysfunctional Forefather also strongly recommended a Defeatist Attitude. All was lost! Don't work! Don't participate in the culture! Hunker down and let the world go to Hell! Being Salt & Light is for chumps not the Losers we were destined to be!
Embrace your Heretical Heritage Quix! It fits you like leather bondage gear!
This latest gem is priceless, I'll be laughing at you for weeks.
Thanks for the ping!
FROM [Some increased Quixicated paragraphing for easier reading]:
http://www.according2prophecy.org/8colleague.html
According To Prophecy Ministries & Evangelist Perkins, brings you articles from some of his colleagues in Bible Prophecy. He has also included the email addresses of the authors at the bottom of their articles, please email the authors and let them know what you think of their articles". |
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"This material is composed of biblical texts, commentaries on biblical texts, aprochyphal and pseudepigraphal texts, sectarian and ritualistic documents, and apocalyptic literature. Every book of the Old Testament is represented, except Esther, although there is evidence it too was known."
The more than 800 documents discovered in caves in the vicinity of the Dead Sea have been commonly referred to as the Dead Sea Scrolls. The eschatology of the sect was consistent with mainstream Judaism (see Eschatology, Jewish), but where more traditional groups played down apocalyptic expectations, they were the sect's characteristic feature. Their eschatological interpretations are preserved in commentaries they wrote on Old Testament books (e.g. Psalms, Prophets) and in their sectarian documents (e.g., Damascus Document, War Scroll). The form of their interpretation is called pesher because this noun is used frequently in the scrolls themselves for the interpretation of a raz, an Aramaic term for mystery. The sect's eschatology is derived from its understanding of human history as being built up in stages determined by God and linked together to move toward an inevitable goal, the eschaton. This defined order of the ages that unfolds progressively and successively in predetermined periods of time The order of these ages according to 4Q180 (The Ages of Creation) consecutively enumerates these periods beginning with the time prior to the creation of man (cf. CD 2:7; 1QS 3:15-18; 1QH 1:8-12). The pesent age of wickedness will escalate until the final conflict between the "sons of darkness" and the "sons of light." According to the War Scroll the final age was to be preceded by a period of tribulation or "birth pangs [of the Messiah]" (1QH 3:7-10), which "shall be a time of salvation for the People of God
" (1QM 1). According to the scrolls, the present age was also to see the imminent visitation of Elijah as the precussor of Messiah (4Q521) and the advent of the Messiah. After the Messiah had defeated all of Israel's enemies, and slain the wicked (the correct interpretation of 4Q285) in the great 40 year (Gog and Magog) war (cf. 1QM; 4QpIsaa 7-10; 22-25; 4QpIsab 2:1; 4Cantenab 3:7-8), at the Day of the Lord (4Q558), a time of redemption would come with a universal peace; men would live a thousand generations, evil would be destroyed, and an ideal world will come about. One problematic characteristic of their eschatology was their conviction that the precise dates of prophetic events could be determined. They believed that their Teacher of Righteousness was inspired by the Holy Spirit to properly discern the hidden timetable of the Last Days. The Dead Sea Scrolls offer to us a window into the eschatological world-view of Jesus and the New Testament. Their eschatology followed a literal interpretation of prophetic texts, a numerological calculation of temporal indicators in judgment pronouncements, and understood a postponement of the final age while not abandoning their hope of it. In many ways their eschatology was not dissimilar from modern Christian premillennialism, and reveals that as a system of interpretation, premillennialism is more closely aligned to the first-century Jewish context than competing eschatological systems.
F.F. Bruce, Biblical Exegesis in the Qumran Texts (London: The Tyndale Press, 1959),
Dr. Randall Price has just release his latest video entitled Secrets of the Dead Sea Scrolls. This video is a companion to his book by the same name. If you would like to order or learn more about this book and video you can contact Dr. Price at his mailing address or Email him below. Also let him know what you think of his articles.
110 Easy Street San Marcos, Texas 78666-7336 |
None of your hostile and personally assaultive assertions are the point.
The point was . . .
that DARBY WAS A JOHNY COME LATELY WITH THE IDEA.
The documention I provided DEMONSTRATED THAT
THAT
ASSERTION
WAS UNMITIGATED HOGWASH.
The other issues are not relevant to that point and purpose of my post.
However, I’m not surprised that those of the REPLACEMENTARIAN PERSPECTIVE grope and scratch until they can come up with an excuse to be personally assaultive in harsh, irrational, UnBiblical, absurd terms.
Carry on, if you wish. I’m sure God is quite impressed.
/s
Be careful — you’re going to get a number of silly picture posts from the quixotical and lexically challenged ones — they can’t argue so they will post silly pictures and try to insult you.
oops — too late, you’ve been invaded by the picture snatchers, the nuts who can’t debate so will post pictures of llamas to cow you down!
Quix — question: do you think you are a psychiatrist to guess that?
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