Posted on 02/07/2011 8:45:48 AM PST by verdugo
There *is* salvation outside the Church, in that God is sovereign. To say otherwise is contrary to what the church has taught since day 1.
The unfortunate thing is that you are the product of poor catechisees and you now nothing about the faith. You just declared a heresy (There *is* salvation outside the Church)and you don't even know it. With every word that you type you pronounce your ignorance of the faith.
You should really go to mass, pray, and study the faith, AND find yourself a real Catholic priest, for whoever has taught you, has not taught you the Catholic Faith.
Just so that we are clear where the disagreement exists,
Let’s sort through everything he said.
1, Christ is the way of salvation. Yes, absolutely.
2, He is present to us in his body, the Church. Yes.
3, He himself asserted necessity of faith and baptism. Yes.
4, He affirmed the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism, as the door.
No. Absolutely not. Sorry. John the Baptist was Baptizing before the Church was created by Christ. Those who are not Christian, can, in an emergency, baptize.
Christ chose to create the Church, in order that the Word would be spread throughout the world. He also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the church.
Do I believe that there is one true church? Yes, this is why I am Catholic. I believe that the Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded.
Do I believe that God cannot save without the Church? No. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Christ even says to the disciples,
In fact, Christ even says, in Mark 9:38-41
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism andatheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.
3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. 4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be "one"[1]. And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"[2]? All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a mostgrave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those schemes which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.
8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.
9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you"[18]. For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith. 10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.
I’ve read Fr. Freeney’s book. I read it as a catechumen. It was very helpful to me in understanding why he was incorrect.
“You just declared a heresy (There *is* salvation outside the Church)and you don’t even know it. With every word that you type you pronounce your ignorance of the faith.”
I’m aware of the disagreement. I believe I stand on the side of the Pope and the Church in that she teaches salvation may be obtained outside of the Church as God is sovereign. He does not need the Church, anymore than he needs anything at all. He chose to found His Church. There is a difference between need and want. He wants all of us to come to him freely, but he does not need us in any way.
You say you are a Catholic, and you go to communion with the Eastern Orthodox, and now you are winging it with scripture against Catholic dogma. An amazing contradictory mix in one person.
I now seriously doubt that you are even a Catholic. I don’t think you even know what you are.
“all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy”
I have never said this, so let’s be fair here Verdugo. let’s also be fair and understand that the Eastern Catholics have not said this either.
“is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics”
Thank goodness he refers to Catholics, which include our Eastern brothers.
Did I say I go to communion with the Eastern Catholics? No. All I said is that we are permitted to do so, because we are in communion with them.
“I now seriously doubt that you are even a Catholic”
Well feel free to ask Bishop Gagnon of Victoria BC. I’ll give you his number, and I’m sure he’ll respond to his inquiry. I worked with him throughout my catechumenate. A wonderful man.
First off it's Fr. Feeney. Secondly, he's written many books. Thirdly, I have not quoted Fr. Feeney ONCE! He is a nobody in this discussion. The liberals and enemies (the enemies of those who believe in the traditional 1900 year old strict interpretation of EENS), use Fr. Feeney as a diversion, so that they don't have to address all the real inconsistencies in their fallible theories. The Fr. Feeney diversion, is a type of ad-hominem attack. AND by the way for the tenth time the followers of Fr. Feeney like the author of this thread, are in union with Rome. Rome does not consider them in error or heretics.
“does not consider them in error or heretics”
I’m not sure you quite understand what a heretic is.
What’s the difference between a heretic and a schismatic?
I asked that you didn’t reply.
It’s never been the issue with any of the SSPX folks over heresy. Nor with Freeny, and his belief that there is no salvation outside the Church.
re:Thank goodness he refers to Catholics, which include our Eastern brothers.
You are in denial. The Orthodox are heretics and schismatics. They are not part of the Catholic Church.
The Eastern Rite Catholics are Catholic, like the Ruthenian Rite Catholics in the in Ukraine, or the Greek Catholics, they would find what you just wrote laughable. Learn your faith. Maybe one of them is reading this and he can enlighten you. It’s not my rite.
You should get off the Internet and go and learn about the Faith. You know nothing. While you are at it, scroll up this thread and you will find where I posted the definition of heresy.
I shall not respond to you again. I've written enough and you have written enough errors to let me know that you know nothing and do not want to learn anything that you don't like.
The reason I bring him up is because he advocates the same position that you do. It is pertinent, that when people choose to espouse his opinion, that we confront the source.
I’m aware that you and him both argue that this dispute goes back to the ancient church. I am in agreement with you on this part.
Where we disagree is whether it is the doctrine of the church that no one who is outside of the Church will be saved. This I disagree. There’s the argument over the invicibly ignorant, which is one. There’s also the argument wrt to the Patriarchs. Are they a part of the Church when the Church did not exist in his time? What about John the Baptist? Just who is considered to be a part of the Church?
If you are arguing that unless you are baptized in the Catholic church, you are condemned to hell, that’s not what Lumen Gentium teaches (which has already been quoted in the thread).
“You are in denial. The Orthodox are heretics and schismatics.”
If they are heretics, what is their heresy?
There are many here with more knowledge of the faith than I.
If I’ve erred, they will write me.
As for not wanting to hear what I do not want to hear, I’m perfectly willing to be corrected. It has nothing to do with what I personally believe and everything to do with what the Church teaches.
You have quoted dogma throughout the thread. The problem is that you’ve not quoted dogma that is actually pertinent to the issue being discussed.
You’ve argued the following.
1, that I believe that there are many ways to God, which I NEVER said.
2. you quoted the doctrine which explains why ecumenism along these lines is fruitless.
3. you argued that we are not to take communion with these folks because of these reasons, something which I am VERY aware of in my personal life.
You’ve yet to quote any reference to the Orthodox church as heretics and schismatics, which is a very serious charge.
So where is it?
THE EASTERN ORTHODOX HAVE NEVER BEEN CONSIDERED CATHOLIC
The confusion that already exists in the Catholic terminology with the progressivist innovations was not enough. Now we have another source of hermeneutical pollution – the schismatics begin to call themselves “catholics". (and aberrosexuals call themselves "gay").
A Catholic, according to the classic definition of St. Robert Bellarmine, adopted by the Magisterium, is one who professes the Catholic Faith, who submits to legitimate Pastors, principally the Roman Pontiff, and shares in common the seven Catholic Sacraments. The Eastern Orthodox have never fulfill these conditions, and thus are not Catholics, but schismatics.
Additionally, for a long time prior to the Schism (1054), various precursors of the movement, among them Photius (886), defended the heresy according to which the Third Person of the Holy Trinity would not proceed from the First and the Second. Cerularius and other Schismatic Greeks also adhered to this error. Therefore, in the 11th century when the Catholic Church declared this movement schismatic, she was exercising mercy, because the normal procedure would have been to declare it heretical. Until today, the Greek and Russian schismatics defend the same error. In addition to denying this dogma, there are at least three others that are not accepted by the Greek and Russian schismatics: they are the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, the Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility. Therefore, in reality, for quite some time the self-proclaimed “Orthodox church” has ceased to be orthodox and has been heretical.
Thus it can be seen that today the Orthodox Eastern Church is not merely schismatical, but truly heretical; for it holds primary doctrines in a different light.
Additional Heresies:
The Orthodox Eastern church's also teaches that the souls of the just will not attain complete happiness till the end of the world, when they will be joined to their bodies; and that the souls of the wicked will not suffer complete torture in hell until that last day. These are heresies against the doctrines of the Church. Besides these dogmas, there are still many other doctrinal points, such the monarchical structure of the Catholic Church,the role of the Sovereign Pontiff in this monarchy that it rejects, Limbo, purgatory, andthe indissolubility of marriage, to name but a few. These mentioned differences are more than enough to show that the “Orthodox” are not orthodox at all, but normally should be called heretics,
Thus it can be seen that today the Orthodox Eastern Church is not merely schismatical, but truly heretical; for it holds primary doctrines in a different light.
“In addition to denying this dogma, there are at least three others that are not accepted by the Greek and Russian schismatics: they are the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, the Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility”
Immaculate conception was proclaimed as infalliable well after the split. So there’s plenty of things that we’ve done in the past millenium that will have to be caught up.
It seems to me that the primary obstacle is Petrine Primacy, and probably infalliability as well, both of which were declared in the 19th century. I hope they can eventually overcome these issues. Petrine primacy is how the Church has always worked, Constantinople isn’t even the oldest eastern patriarch, and none of them save Rome has remained in Christian jurisdiction for quite some time.
This I think is the gravest tragedy. There were 5, and now there are 1. Would be nice to have all 5 together again.
“indissolubility of marriage”
Is that a recent change? I was aware of the filoque, but I don’t believe that’s a serious barrier, and that the Orthodox would be willing to accept the Filoque.
What’s the evidence for their eschatology? That is one I’ve not heard before.
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