Mormonism, the Halloween Religion [Superbowl special

Mormon General Authority B. H. Roberts admitted that Joe Smith's ancestors believed in warlocks and witches, but he asserted that such belief was normal in Smith's day, "Yes, the Prophet's ancestors were credulous. . . . It may be admitted that some of them believed in fortune telling, in warlocks and witches. . . . To be credulous in such things was to be normal people" (B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 26-27).

Fayette Lapham, who spoke with the Smiths at length to find out firsthand about Mormonism, said, "This Joseph Smith, Senior, we soon learned, from his own lips, was a firm believer in witchcraft and other supernatural things; and had brought up his family in the same belief" (Historical Magazine, 7 May 1870, p. 306).

Joshua Stafford, a neighbor of the Smith family, noted that their money digging started no later than about 1820, when Joe Smith, Jr., was about fifteen years old:

Orsamus Turner said, "Legends of hidden treasure had long designated Mormon Hill as the repository..."

From the article: Orsamus Turner said, "Legends of hidden treasure had long designated Mormon Hill as the repository.

What if I were to say: In the hills near my house, specifically the Hill BBQlessof, I was digging 'round for treasure, and found these gold-plated DVD-like plates.

Not sure knowing what to doeth with them, my various DVD players seemed to be good temporary hiding places since they fit perfectly.

Let's see this happened when I was 14...well, maybe 15...Or perhaps 16.

Anyway, my dog accidentally bumped up vs. one of my DVD players...and lo, and behold, it came to pass that I heard exceeding spouts of wisdom that cometh from thine plates!

Uponeth furthereth revieweth, lo and behold, it came to pass that what I heardeth was found in thine Mormon scriptures -- Doctrine & Covenants -- the Book of Mormon -- and the Pearl of Great Price.

However, as I translated these English DVDs into English -- what I call the CST -- the Colofornian Standard Translation, I had to restore the garbled questions.

I know the answers are 100% right...foreth I compareth them to the written Doctrines & Covenants and Book of Mormons. I pray tell I got the questions just right.

If not, oh well. It's Super Bowl Sunday...when we watch beer commercials that superimpose questions upon coaches during interviews with the press. And if it works for them, hey, it works for me.

(The 'interview' follows in the next two posts.)

From the article: A belief in witchcraft was passed through the Smith generations...Joshua Stafford, a neighbor of the Smith family, noted that their money digging started no later than about 1820, when Joe Smith, Jr., was about fifteen years old

From my 'digging,' I 'found': THE BOOK OF JOE, JR., THE OCCULTIC 'PROPHET'

Why, 'finding' those gold-plated DVD-like things [see post #1] was almost like tapping into Joseph Smith as a "medium" from the dead. Fortunately the CST Translation 'restored' the original interview:

The Original 'Super' interview leading to excerpts from THE BOOK OF JOE, JR., THE OCCULTIC 'PROPHET':

Q. "Joe, I know I should be asking others if using you in the form of a 'medium' from the dead is A-OK, but hey, in April 6, 1830 -- per D&C 21 -- you as an unordained elder ordained somebody, so perhaps you could convince us to place the mantle of acceptance upon somebody who I prophesy will give generational seed to a future U.S. presidential candidate, Mitt Romney -- that being your apostle, Parley P. Pratt?"

A. "I, the Lord, am well pleased...also with my servant Parley P. Pratt, for he abideth in me. And inasmuch as continueth to abide in me he shall continue to preside over the school in the land of Zion until I shall give unto him other commandments. And I will bless him with a multiplicity of blessings, in expounding all scriptures and mysteries to the edification of the school, and of the church in Zion." (Aug. 2, 1833, D&C 97:3-5)

Q. "Well, then, Parley P. Smith has assured us that you are able to 'expound...all scriptures and mysteries to the efication...of the church in Zion.' Tell us, what's your opinion of Joe Smith, Jr. as a 'medium?'"

"Who communicated with our great modern Prophet, and revealed through him as a MEDIUM, the ancient history of a hemisphere, and the records of the ancient dead? Moroni, who had lived upon the earth fourteen hundred years before." (Parley P. Pratt, 23rd Lds church anniversary date, April 6, 1853, p. 44) Source: Journal of Discourse, Vol. 2, pp. 44-45...doesn't matter if you go here:
Source: Journal of Discourses/Volume 2/Spiritual Communication or here: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 44-45 ... they both read the same...the first link is a little easier to access and read/wade through.

Q. "'Medium' Joe, which per 'Apostle' Pratt is one of your official titles, since you know a lot about the dead past, why should we find a LOT of Book of Mormon archaeology?"

A. "And it came to pass that Coriantum did walk in the steps of his father, and did build many mighty cities..." (Ether 9:23)

Q. "Mighty cities, eh? MANY of them! Skyscrapers with windows, perhaps, Joe?"

A. "What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye canot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces..." (Ether 2:23)

Q. "Well, let's see. If they found the Ether plates in the "days of Mosiah" -- you know 121-148 BC -- and if these were more ancient records as to how Jews came over to Middle or South America -- they had "windows" in their vessels back then?

A. [Crickets]

Q. "Joe, what was your fave house that you lived in -- and what was the Mormon god's promise to you?"

A. "Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord. And let the name of that house be called Nauvoo House..." (Jan. 19, 1841 D&C 124: 59-60)

Q. "Uh, ya wanna tell us which Smith 'seed' lives in that house now?

[Note: We initially heard only Mormon crickets on this one...but then I detected a faint "P.S." on this from Joe, Jr. -- we think him as a medium was using another 'channel.' : The detected message was like a P.S.: "Uh. Never mind."]

Q. "Joe, I see you had a bit of problem on that Nauvoo house prophesy, but what about 'property prophecies' in general. Are you good at those?"

A. "Verily I say unto you, my friends, I give unto you counsel, and a commandment, concerning ALL THE PROPERTIES which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established to be a united order, and an EVERLASTING ORDER for the benefit of my church...With promise immutable and unchangeable..." (April 23, 1834, D&C 104:1-2)

("Uh, Joe, you know that the "Everlasting 'United' Order" that the Mormons ran in the 19th century was disbanded, don't you? Wait a minute...picking up that faint side-signal again...P.S. seems to say: "Uh. Never mind.")

Q. "OK, Joe...so you had some issues with housing and properties prophecies, hey, everybody does. What about a grander scale like 'cities.'?"

A. "And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have pore over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts;" (Aug. 6, 1836, D&C 111:4)

("Uh, Joe, you do know, don't you that there's no record of anybody in Salem, MA -- the city you were talking about here -- was ever handed to either you or other Mormons, don't you? Oh...wait...that signal yet again...seems to be yet one more P.S. from our 'star medium': "Uh. Never mind."

Q. "Joe, c'mon. Tell us: Why would you want the city of Salem, Massachusetts to begin with??"

A. "Well, in light of not getting a response from Joe on this one, we did our own research:"

A. "You see, according to this thread's article:"

Many Mormons do not know about Joe Smith's family involvement in the Salem witch trials of 1692, when Joe Smith Sr.'s great-grandfather Samuel Smith and Samuel's father-in-law John Gould testified against Mary Easty and Sarah Wilds respectively. The testimony of these relatives of Joe Smith hanged these girls as witches. A belief in witchcraft was passed through the Smith generations. Even Orlando Saunders, whom Mormon apologists consider to be one of the most favorable witnesses to Joe Smith's character, said in an interview that both Joe Smith Sr. and Jr. believed in witchcraft (Frederic G. Mather, "The Early Days of Mormonism," Lippincott's Magazine 26, Aug. 1880, p. 198). Mormon General Authority B. H. Roberts admitted that Joe Smith's ancestors believed in warlocks and witches, but he asserted that such belief was normal in Smith's day, "Yes, the Prophet's ancestors were credulous. . . . It may be admitted that some of them believed in fortune telling, in warlocks and witches. . . . To be credulous in such things was to be normal people" (B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 26-27). Fayette Lapham, who spoke with the Smiths at length to find out firsthand about Mormonism, said, "This Joseph Smith, Senior, we soon learned, from his own lips, was a firm believer in witchcraft and other supernatural things; and had brought up his family in the same belief" (Historical Magazine, 7 May 1870, p. 306).

From the article: A belief in witchcraft was passed through the Smith generations.

Ah. On my last post, I suppose Mormons are breathing a sigh of relief here. For a second, they might have thought Smith's family might be linked to some "witch" of Salem -- instead of Joseph Smith's great-great grandfather testifying vs. Mary Easty and Sarah Wilds, resulting in their hangings as witches. So, let's "pick up" on the "interview":

Q. "OK, Joe. We see your lack of 'success prophecy rate' with homes, properties, and cities...what about counties like your prophesies about Jackson Co., MO?"

A. * "Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westeward, even to the line running directly between Jew and Gentile." (July, 1831, D&C 57:4)
* AND: "And behold, there is NONE OTHER PLACE APPOINTED than that WHICH I HAVE APPOINTED; NEITHER SHALL THERE BE ANY OTHER PLACE APPOINTED THAN THAT WHICH I HAVE APPOINTED, FOR THE WORK OF GATHERING MY SAINTS..." (Dec. 16, 1833, D&C 101:20)
* AND: "...surely Zion CANNOT fall, NEITHER BE MOVED OUT OF HER PLACE, for God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there;" (Aug. 2, 1833, D&C 97:19)

Q "Boy that 'gathering' place was awfully short-lived, Joe. How did you then explain how you forecasted that the Saints wouldn't/couldn't 'be moved out of her place?'"

A. "Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered." (Dec. 16, 1833, D&C 101:17)

"Wow! Good thing you added your 'notwithstanding...scattered' clause a mere 4.5 months AFTER that Aug. 2 prophesy failed!"

Q. "What did you say would happen re: the battle vs 'the Saints in Jackson, County, Missouri' (intro to D&C 103)?"

A. "Behold they shall, for I hae decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour." (Feb. 24, 1834, D&C 103:6)

Q. "Well, obviously houses, properties, cities -- nor counties -- seemed to be "your thing" for prophetic predictions, Joe. Shall we try your prophetic hand at people?"

A. "And again, I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name SHALL be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord."

"Uh, who? Oliver who?"

Q. "Joe, what do you prophesy about another person, David W. Patten?"

A "Verily thus saith the Lord" [that David W. Patten would] "perform a mission unto me next spring in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world." (April 17, 1838, D&C 114:1)

Q "Joe, did he?"

A Yes another P.S. "Uh. never mind.

"Having our interest piqued, we asked, 'Was the Mormon 'god' right? Did the Mormon "god" speak truly and directly through Joseph Smith?' (Sadly, not on either your life nor Patten's life!!!) David W. Patten died, and never made the mission in company with 11 others. Smith's Mormon god simply didn't know this in advance?"

"We discovered that on Oct. 25, 1838, the Battle of Crooked River, Missouri, occurred, where David W. Patten was killed. What led up to his death?"

Oct. 24, 1838: "Thomas B. Marsh, [LDS] President of the Quorum of the Twelve, having fled the violence in Daviess and Caldwell counties, testifies in Richmond, Ray county, that a company of Mormons under Apostle David Patten had burned Gallatin, that [LDS] Danites planned to burn Buncombe and perhaps Liberty and Richmond; that Joseph believes his prophecies are superior to the laws of the land, and so forth." [Source: Saints Without Halos ]

"Apparently, this Mormon 'apostle' Patten led the charge and burned the community of Gallatin, MO! (Hmm...Joe, what about that? Why don't we hear Mormons expound upon that when they mention either the Missouri Governor's order to exit Missouri (Oct. 27, 1838) or the Hawn's Mill battle? (Oct. 30, 1838)".

Q. "Joe, how can we possibly confirm that you were God's lone 'prophetic' voice...Uh...Since your god has a body of flesh, you MUST know what his fave soap is. Tell us right now what his fave soap is!!!"

A. "For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap..." (Sept. 6, 1842, D&C 128:24)

Q. "Wow! I never knew an American product like Fuller's soap made it into 'scripture.' But, hey, given you -- Joe -- have taken up to 14 additional wives the previous 11 months to this statement -- and that on top of four previous wives...I guess Fuller's soap was coming in pretty handy, eh? Let's bring Brigham Young, anotherwise known as 'Bring 'em Young' in here. Brigham, what's your short take of Joseph Smith, Jr. and those who died with him?"
A. "They lived for glory..." (D&C 135:6)

Ah...IOW, Smith badly missed that "single eye for glory" he kept talking about earlier in his life, eh?

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their former Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, quote and straw man attack that. Almost without fail you will see examples of this following this post.

Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think. So again, seek the truth. They aren't providing it. Use your God-given brain and discernment.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

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