Jerusalem, the Have-not Whore

American Vision ^ | Feb. 4, 2011 | Joel McDurmon

[RJR_fan]

Bottom Line (last few paragraphs):

Where the Great luxury-devouring Whore Jerusalem had failed, Jesus instructs his disciples to succeed. Instead of selling yourself to the kings of the earth, uphold the kingdom of God to them as a witness. Instead of striving after the treasures as if they were an end in themselves, use the treasures as a means to strive for the Kingdom. And toward this goal of spreading the kingdom—the very goal for which the original covenant called—God would be absolutely pleased to give them treasures and the kingdom.

Based on the continuity of themes—wealth, kingdom, inheritance—Jesus’ teaching to the disciples should be considered of one piece with the parable of the rich fool. The section of Scripture, Luke 12:13–34, should be taken as a whole. And the immediate message was the disinheritance of Israel, and the transfer of the Kingdom to the New Testament church. This blessing, we are told, is the “Father’s good pleasure” (12:32).

[topcat54]

No, but I do believe that men will recycle their weapons into peaceful pursuits, which is the correct understanding of that verse.

If your criteria are some extra-biblical notions of what the prophecy means, e.g., modern weapons in a modern setting, then it is almost impossible to get to the true biblical meaning of the text.

So again, I ask you, do you see nations recycling their arms into peaceful uses and not fighting against each other, just as the verse said?

Eventually, perhaps in several thousand years, I see the nations under the dominion of King Jesus in word and deed. King Jesus who remains firmly enthroned in heaven. As the prophet declared:

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea. (Isa. 11:9)

It is the gospel that will subdue the nations, and turn them from their hostility towards one another. There is nothing that requires this to be after the Second Coming.

Once Christ subdues the nations, He returns to resurrect His people, and “then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.” (1 Cor. 15:24)

There is no room in the text for a kingdom on earth post-Second Coming yet pre-eternal state.

[paladin1_dcs]

Again, I’m not saying that the Bible isn’t infallible. Far from it, but what I am saying is that we know it’s infallible due to historical records proving that it is infallible.

I’m not saying that extra-Biblical evidence alone is solid enough ground to argue from, but I am saying that Biblical evidence will always agree with extra-Biblical evidence. After all, we know that the whole world testifies to the Glory of God, should we not expect the historical record to testify to this same end?

[paladin1_dcs]

I believe we are at an impasse here, as neither of us seem willing to budge in our interpretation of Scripture.

While I disagree vehemently with you about the future events that may come about, I can at least say that we agree that Christ is risen and now sits at the right hand of His Father.

May the peace of our Father go with you.

[Netizen]

I am not surprised that you continue to sound so antagonistic against my concept of Yehoshua as Mashiac, to the point of implying that anyone who believes Yehoshua haMashiac is of the synagogue of Satan and has the Mark of the Beast.

I posted that verse because I wanted to know your thoughts on it.

I have given you my points on what I believe and why I believe it respectfully and understand you have a G-d given right to believe in the manner that you do, but I think I’m sure you are mistaken as to who you’re allies are.

I could say the same and you yourself are suggesting the same thing that you are accusing me of. ;)

There is a dividing line being drawn in the sand in these last days. Islamic forces have vowed to destroy, namely Jews, as well as Christians.

We agree on this point.

It is sad you view my belief system with hostility and accusation, since I consider your people our greatest friend and ally and I would fight to defend Israel’s cause and right to the land the L-rd YHWH himself swore to your ancestors, but it was all with the intent that,

I'm not sure why you think there was hostility in my post. I gave verses to support my views, I'm sorry that you found those verses hostile.

Israel, a nation of kings and priests, would share the God of Israel to the world, not so that the nation would become an esoteric club only accessible by birth-right, but to educate the heathen on serving the Living G-d and entering a relationship with the Creator and Father of ALL humanity. Israel was given a high calling and great responsibility.

Messiah from the Hebrew
4899 mashiyach maw-shee'-akh from the root of 4886;
anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest , or saint;
specifically, the Messiah:--anointed, Messiah.
1) anointed, anointed one
a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
b) of the king of Israel
c) of the high priest of Israel
d) of Cyrus
e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Now, Christ from the Greek
5547 Christos khris-tos' from the root 5548;
anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed

Notice what IS MISSING?  In the Greek, there are no other options given.  

Israel does share YHWH. What is sad is that some people have corrupted Hebrew Scriptures to force prophecies that allowed them to create and worship a new god. No one is keeping you or anyone else from following YHWH.

Hegesippus (circa 170AD) records that the Law and Prophets were taught until all the Apostles died off.:

... Up to that period the Church had remained like a virgin pure and uncorrupted: for, if there were any persons who were disposed to tamper with the wholesome rule of the preaching of salvation, they still lurked in some dark place of concealment or other. But, when the sacred band of apostles had in various ways closed their lives, and that generation of men to whom it had been vouchsafed to listen to the Godlike Wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then did the confederacy of godless error take its rise through the treachery of false teachers, who, seeing that none of the apostles any longer survived, at length attempted with bare and uplifted head to oppose the preaching of the truth by preaching "knowledge falsely so called." On my arrival at Rome, I drew up a list of the succession of bishops down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. To Anicetus succeeded Soter, and after him came Eleutherus. But in the case of every succession,14 and in every city, the state of affairs is in accordance with the teaching of the Law and of the Prophets and of the Lord.... Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching.15 Thebulis it was who, displeased because he was not made bishop, first began to corrupt her by stealth. . . . Each of these leaders in his own private and distinct capacity brought in his own private opinion. From these have come false Christs, false prophets, false apostles-men who have split up the one Church into parts16 through their corrupting doctrines, uttered in disparagement of God and of His Christ....

From the Council of Nicea (325):(excerpted)

It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded.

In rejecting their custom,(1) we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

They do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such wicked people[the Jews].

That's why the church needed to change the calendar, needed to do away with the Sabbath and started Sun-day worship, in 'honor of the venerable Sun'. Why they needed to distance themselves from Passover and celebrate Easter, a name derived from the pagan godess of fertility, widely known at the time.

The church has done nearly all it could to distance themselves from the root that they 'claim' to be grafted unto. Yet, it resembles nothing of the root anymore.

The part I want to specifically point out is this: for the Saviour has shown us another way;

An actual admission that the church has deviated from 'the way' and gone after 'another way'!! And to top it off, they give credit to Yehoshua for this 'new way'. The church admits that this 'other way' is more CONVENIENT!

Sooner than you might expect, the New World order and its governments, beginning with the United States, will issue a decree to the world to accept Sunday as the official day of worship in an effort to appease the wrath that has begun to unfold upon the world through natural disaster and societal upheaval, and you and I will be forced to hold the same ground, the right to worship G-d on His appointed Holy Day, the Seventh-Day sabbath and if you and I are still alive you can remember this warning.

If I recall correctly Friday is the day of worship for Muslims. WHO started the idea of Sunday worship? You cannot blame that on the Muslims. There are plenty of other things that can be pinned on them, but pushing for Sunday worship isn't one of them.

Anything I've posted was posted in good faith. It wasn't meant to be hostile or angry. I tried my best to cite scripture and let it do the talking. Your right we are so close in our views and only differ on The Messiah. My faith is in YHWH, He is the only Savior I need and He is the One that I trust with my soul. When religion gets confusing, call on, rely on, put your trust and faith in YHWH and you cannot go wrong.

I would rather stand in front of YHWH and say that I had placed my entire faith in Him and trusted Him with my soul than stand in front of YHWH and tell Him that I trusted Yehoshua instead. Do not trust substitutes.

May YHWH bless you.

[topcat54]

Again, I’m not saying that the Bible isn’t infallible. Far from it, but what I am saying is that we know it’s infallible due to historical records proving that it is infallible.

I’m not sure where you are getting your theories of Scripture and epistemology, but we do not prove the Bible’s infallibility by external source.

I am saying that Biblical evidence will always agree with extra-Biblical evidence.

Interesting, but it really has nothing to do with your claim. The Bible is self-authenticating and self-attesting. It does not need to be propped up by external witnesses.

[blasater1960]

Israel, a nation of kings and priests, would share the God of Israel to the world, not so that the nation would become an esoteric club only accessible by birth-right, but to educate the heathen on serving the Living G-d and entering a relationship with the Creator and Father of ALL humanity. Israel was given a high calling and great responsibility.

My FRiend Hope, gentiles have had access to G-d since the time of Noah by following the seven laws of Noah. And once the Law was given by conversion into the Jewish faith, (like Ruth and Jethro). It is not a birth-right or else you need Jesus situation.

Regarding the messiah. Do you know how many times the word messiah occurs in the Jewish scriptures?.....ZERO. Do you know how many time the word Mashiach appears in the Hebrew?...39. Now...how many times does the word messiah appear in the Christian OT?....2 times. Just two times? All other times in the Christian OT mashiach is translated properly as "anointed one" the 2 times it appears is in Daniel Chap 9, as The Messiah....Why is that? They are PLAYING WITH THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES....thats why. Trying to make it appear to be about Jesus.

If you were to go back to bible times and ask the man on the street where is mashiach...would they point to Jesus? No. They would ask you back..."which mashiach do you mean?" There are many! Kings are mashiach (Saul unrighteous, David righteous etc) Priests are mashiachs. Non-Jew Cyrus was a mashiach. Many mashiachs! As a matter of fact, ha mashiach, the messiah or The Anointed one, never appears even once in the hebrew!

[TaraP]

Hi everyone!

Been reading many posts here, and I do have a question for blaster! Okay blaster you said:

G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and “... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold—they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.’” (Zech. 8:23)

Are you saying G-d will reward Israel as a Nation, or individual people *Torah Observant Jews* same question in regards to Gentiles..Are you speaking of *Gentile Nations*? or individual gentile people?

My understanding from a Christian point of view is that Jesus will rule the nations from Jerusalem and the Divine Government will be the Jews from the Ancient times, no one from a Modern Generation which we all are...

The 12 tribes of Israel will teach the gentiles....

Basically I think both Jews and Christians adhere to the fact that the Moshiach (even though their is a difference to who it is) will rule from Jerusalem and the temple sacrafices will be as *gifts*, who are the *Key Players* to the Jewish People and the Gentiles? Have they already been designated in Judaism as it has in Christian doctrine regarding the *Millenial Kingdom*?

Thanks!

Peace and Shalom!

TaraP

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping.

[TaraP]

Hey quix!

Hope you are doing good!

I meant to add this to my last post...

Matthew 19:27-28, the apostle Peter says “We have left everything and followed you. What will we have?” Jesus said to them, “You can be sure that when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne in the New Age, then you twelve followers of mine will also sit on thrones, to rule the twelve tribes of Israel”

….sit on thrones … That is what the apostles of the Lord will have when the millenarian Empire will start.

The apostles of the Lord get the same glory as the Lord Himself. They will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.

This means that the apostles get the task to serve as His judges over the people of Israel. They act on behalf of Jesus Christ...

The Son of Man sits on His glorious throne. The Son of Man is typically a term which expresses the Humanity of Jesus Christ. It is a term which emphasis the earthy government of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ will then rule this world as the Son of Man and not as the Son of God.

From my understanding Jesus has already chosen the Apostles to rule with him in Israel...Now from an Orthodox Judasim point of view, I was wanting to understand if they believe the 12 tribes of Israel will rule the Nation of Israel or the gentile nations or not at all?

[Quix]

I believe all Believers are scheduled to rule and reign with Christ throughout endless ages and evidently countless worlds.

Thanks for the ping.

[blasater1960]

Basically I think both Jews and Christians adhere to the fact that the Moshiach (even though their is a difference to who it is) will rule from Jerusalem and the temple sacrafices will be as *gifts*, who are the *Key Players* to the Jewish People and the Gentiles? Have they already been designated in Judaism as it has in Christian doctrine regarding the *Millenial Kingdom*?

Moshiach will be a King. Rule from Jerusalem like in biblical times. Once the temple is rebuilt and the priesthood restored, sin sacrifices will resume. (Ezek 44)

The key players will be Elijah, who will precede Moshiach: Malachi 4 4"(J)Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. 5"Behold, I am going to send you (K)Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

The other key player will be messiah ben Yosef, who will be a great military figure and be killed at the battle of gog and magog. And of course messiah ben David. who will be a contemporary of both the returned Elijah and messiah ben Yosef.

Messiah ben David will resume the line of King David. He will rule and not the apostles of the Greek Testament nor the man from Nazareth! :o)

[TaraP]

Thanks blasater!

I did think that the players had already been set like you stated....

Well I know you are in dis-agreement about that Man from Nazareth and his apostles, so I will leave you with this, since they were all *Jews* I assume you still believe they will all be there!

Blessings and Shalom!

Tarah!
Thanks for getting back to me..:)

[Netizen]

TaraP, why would Jesus not want some people to convert and be saved, if he came to save all manakind?

Mark 4
9   And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10   And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11   And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12   That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

[Netizen]

Pinging you to #233

[TaraP]

Jesus is a Saviour of all mankind....Jesus did not come to change the law of GOD, he came for sinners, which we all are..conversion he was seeking was one of the heart....

Religion all religion is based upon man’s attempt to be pleasing in GOD’s favor.....The Jews were always going to be GOD’s chosen people, as GOD does not lie.

Jesus came to reconcile all people in GOD’s favor until he comes again and he will rule with an iron rod.

The people (Key Players) from the Bible will rule and Israel will be in posession of the Jews eternally....

You can have the whole world obeying the laws of Torah and Noahide commandments, but if people hate each other alll those laws are meaningless...Conversion is in the heart...

[Netizen]

Address the part in red please. Why did Jesus not want some people to convert and be saved, if he came to save all mankind?

[TaraP]

That is a parable Jesus is using for those who are willing to understand..

The “mystery” is something that cannot be understood without revelation from God. It is not something that can be discovered through the craftiness or wisdom of man apart from God. In this context, it seems to refer to Jesus giving the disciples a fuller understanding of the meaning of the parable so that they would understand the kingdom of God and how they were expected to function within it....

[TaraP]

That is a parable Jesus is using for those who are willing to understand..

The “mystery” is something that cannot be understood without revelation from God. It is not something that can be discovered through the craftiness or wisdom of man apart from God. In this context, it seems to refer to Jesus giving the disciples a fuller understanding of the meaning of the parable so that they would understand the kingdom of God and how they were expected to function within it....

[Netizen]

You can be willing all you want, but, If something is deliberately made so that you cannot understand, you are not going to get it. sheesh

[TaraP]

No one understands all and who GOD is..

As he says:

My way are not your ways, nor are my thoughts your thoughts.

GOD works in Mysterious Ways...

We are pretty limited as Physical beings