End Time: How Christians Lose

youtube ^ | Feb. 3, 2011 | "Molotov" Mitchell

[RJR_fan]

Molotov Mitchell hits another one out of the ballpark!

Click HERE.

[circlecity]

"When we look in scripture we do find it again and almost exactly the same description, Matthew 24 (and in Luke and Mark) with Jesus giving the description and here we DO have a timeline."

Actually, I prefer Luke's version of the Olivet discourse to Matthew. While Matthew is more detailed the prophecies of the fall of Jerusalem are so entertwined with the end time prophecies that it's virtually impossible to sort them out. This is illustrated by the Preterists who claim Matthew 24 deals exclusively with the fall of Jerusalem. Luke is more straight forward in its timeline and easier to follow in that it separates the two events much more clearly.

[cinciella]

“Too many Christians sit around and wait for the rapture and don’t get involved in politics or charity because “Jesus is coming back soon anyway”.”

Do you really know Christians like this? All the ones that I know, and that do believe we are in the “end times” are very involved in politics & charity. One of my former pastors has been very involved in Haiti, and prays & advises local governmental leaders whenever he gets the opportunity - and they seek him out. I truly have never known Christians that are just hiding out, waiting for the rapture. I believe that’s just an argument that the preterists/Kingdom Now/dominionists use.

[RJR_fan]

Whose spirit is speaking through you? That's not the Holy Spirit, is it?

Actually, I suspect it's the same Spirit Who motivated Paul to recommend that the Judaizers should take another slice with their pernicious knives. Who motivated Ezekiel to caricature those who were about shaft Israel as having the genitalia and emissions of farm animals.

What is the point of "prophecy teaching?"

Since so much of it is dedicated to events alleged to occur after we're no longer around? Since so much of it is alleged to have no relevance to those to whom it was originally addressed? "Prophecy experts" would have us believe that Jesus was not talking to the folks listening to Him when He spoke of/to "this generation." John was not writing to the seven churches in Asia. Both were padding out the pages of Holy Writ with material that was addressed, not to those to whom it was addressed, but to we who live in the "terminal generation." Somehow, the numbers always get adjusted to ensure that said generation doesn't include them, but us!

To answer my own question ...

• The "point" of "prophecy teaching" appears to be the self-pleasuring of the addicts to this addled genre. A psychologist who spent a few years among "the apocalyptics" discovered a common denominator: most had experienced horrific pain in their lives -- and used "prophecy teaching" as a way to externalize the trauma, to imaginatively project it out, against the big screen of fantasies of cosmic retribution.
• The "point" of "prophecy teaching" appears to be compensation for persistent failure in our own lives. If God Himself has decided to take a dive, and let the other team have a few free kicks,[1] then why should I try very hard to get anywhere, or to achieve anything, in my life?
• The "point" of "prophecy teaching" appears to be generating income for the purveyors. Hey, it helps Hal Lindsey pay alimony to three (at last count) discarded wives!
• The "point" of "prophecy teaching" appears to be making the Gospel look imbecilic in the eyes of those who God so loved, and sent His Son to die for. When we use lamestream media, rather than God's own Word as a tool for understanding the Bible, we set ourselves up to look like lunatics decade after decade, as our solemn pronouncements and prognostications are discredited by events.
• The "point" of "prophecy teaching" appears to be the discouraging of God's people from "attempting great things for God. Expecting great things from God."

A scheme of interpretation that undermines the faith of God's people, that asserts that God can not be expected to work in, through, and for us in miraculous ways today, that mentally consigns all of creation to the devil -- at least, for 3.5 or 7 years, is sub-optimal. And will, I trust, be looked back about with amused horror a century from now. "What were those people thinking? How could they fall for this dung?" (another word the Holy Spirit prompted Paul to use, BTW.)

---

[1] In an effort to internationalize my audience, I'm using a soccer term today, rather than the baseball idiom, "uncontested turns at bat" -- and three innings later, the other ethnic group won.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

Actually, I suspect it's the same Spirit Who motivated Paul

You're still bragging. Your lack of humility makes it a stretch to believe you are today being motivated by the Holy Spirit. That doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit. Too much big talk and bluster...no humility.

We all make mistakes (me most of all)...but you might get off your high horse long enough to look in the mirror.

Your original comment was embarrassing.

[vanilla swirl]

yes. I frequently try to talk with “Christians” about things going on in the world that we should be concerned about. They frequently give me a blank stare and say “Jesus is coming back to rapture us anyway so why should I care”. I also see a lot of missionary work being done as just “something to do”.

[RJR_fan]

Hopefully this young man will someday seek God to find His vision for his life, and not continue down this path.

Thank you for your considerate prayers. May the Spirit that invokes such blessings upon my life do the same for you and your house! And may God show you tokens of His favor even today!

It's flattering to hear a guy pushing 60 referred to as a "young" man. A testimony to the youthful exuberance you catch when you hang around Jesus long enough, perhaps! Seriously, though, when I was 20, and believed then as you do now, I was unable to think more than a week or two ahead. Since everyone knew that Jesus was coming back in the immediate future, the only logical thing for a committed Christian to do was drop out of school, quit his job, and seek "full-time ministry" opportunities. Street evangelism. Travel with a pentecostal tent crusade. Serve as an unpaid volunteer on the staff of a street mission. All stuff you can do NOW, with minimal training or reflection.

One thing I have in common with that wild-eyed, long-haired Jesus Freak of 1970-1975 is -- a passionate desire to be in on what God is up to. Harnessed, however, to a more mature, and more demanding, understanding of God's purposes. I've taken on long-term projects, for example. My master's thesis is still cited by those who discuss the social maturity of home school children, still encouraging Christian parents to do right by their kids. My recently-completed doctoral dissertation will, I pray, open doors of faith to thoughtful Turkish Muslims, and bring many to Christ. Given genetic and lifestyle indicators, I can reasonably anticipate another 30 or more years of productive life -- and am eager to see what God has for the second half of my adult life. His transforming mercies, wisdom, and kindness experienced hitherto predispose me to expect great things ahead.

I do pray that you, too, will lay hold of God, and receive from Him a vision condign with His greatness, kindness, and power. Something a little more significant that reading the program for a spectator's spectacle!

[cinciella]

I was actually referring to the man in the video.

But, I don’t see any difference in the way you are leading your life, and the way I and all of my friends who believe the same way I do, are leading our lives. Most of my friends are home school moms; they want the best for their kids’ futures. Same for me (can’t homeschool where I live - it’s illegal). My husband is looking at going back to school to get a master’s degree. We support the Tea Party, and are looking forward to the election of 2012! Hopefully we can restore some sanity (and morality) to our government. We are planning for the future. However, there are obvious signs of God intervening even now in the affairs of the world. To me, it is exciting to be a part of it all. It makes me want to make sure that I am completely and totally in His will, fulfilling His plan for my life - occupying until He comes. That is what His Word advises us to do.

And I will never back down or apologize for looking forward to His return.

[cinciella]

“yes. I frequently try to talk with “Christians” about things going on in the world that we should be concerned about. They frequently give me a blank stare and say “Jesus is coming back to rapture us anyway so why should I care”. I also see a lot of missionary work being done as just “something to do”.”

Wow! You make them sound like robots!

I’ve been to many churches, in many denominations, in many countries, and I’ve never ever heard a Christian say “Jesus is coming back to rapture us anyway so why should I care.”

Never.

And, missionary work is too hard to be just “something to do”.

[Rashputin]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (i.e. context)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. and the dead in Christ will rise first.

I dare say that no one will miss the trumpet of God nor will there be anything secret or selective in the event described in Thessalonians. The same is true for almost all the verses quoted to support the rapture. They're out of context and woven into a straw mat of verses carefully selected to buttress that theory.

Men, women, and children, were fed alive to wild beasts and burned alive to entertain the pagans, yet Christians alive at the appropriate point in time are going to be spared because ... Because why? Because enduring to the end is too horrible to think about?

Believe what you like about the rapture, but be very careful tossing around Bible verses without context and without ever even looking into the view of those verses that was held for the first eighteen hundred years of Church history.

There will be worldwide persecution at some point but that doesn't mean the people with the appropriate decoder ring will be snatched away to avoid it. Christ himself said you would suffer in this world and reconciling His promise that you would suffer with the theory that you'll be spared is interesting to say the least.

[sauropod]

home

[vanilla swirl]

there are many “robots” out there. How do you think Obama got elected ;-)

I have seen “mission trips” by youth groups that seem little more than “summer camp”.

limited by my phone ;-)

[vanilla swirl]

If we were truly being salt and light unto the world Obama would not have been elected, abortion would be illegal, etc. This is not an argument about creating “heaven on earth”. I am well aware that that won’t happen until Jesus comes back. Only He will bring the New Jeruslem!

[cinciella]

No disagreement on what you posted here. When I’m talking about missionaries, I’m talking of long-termers, not youth group trips. Their life is full of sacrifice and hard work, and I believe that without God’s call on their lives, it would be impossible to continue on.

[cinciella]

We are in agreement!

[CynicalBear]

>>Actually, I suspect it’s the same Spirit Who motivated Paul to recommend that the Judaizers should take another slice with their pernicious knives.<<

To what scripture text are you referring there?

[starlifter]

Have you taken all your meds today?

[Erasmus]

The ejection seat idea doesn't cut it no matter how you take scripture out of context to support it.

I always envisioned an old Hertz commercial being run backwards.

≤}B^)

[topcat54]

Jesus himself described the end of the age as one of great tribulation.

The age ( aeon)in question was the old covenant age that ended in the first century. The “great tribulation” had to do with the Roman invasion of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in that day. It’s ancient history.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the aeon, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Heb. 9:26)

[topcat54]

I take issue with the premise that we can create a “Heaven on Earth” without the direct intervention of Jesus.

But even the futurist millennium is not “heaven on earth,” even with your claim of direct intervention by Jesus. There is still death and sin in the millennium. And a significant rebellion at the end, when the nations “whose number is as the sand of the sea” go up against the “camp of the saints.”

“Heaven on earth” does not come until the new heavens and new earth.

Of course the Scripture teaches that this comes about at the “day of the Lord” who comes as a thief to redo creation.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

[topcat54]

I have major problems when people ridicule other Christians for honest disagreements over eschatology. You may not understand it, but please respect that people can and do differ in their reading of Revelation and the prophecy of the end times.

But just a few posts earlier you wrote:

How nice of him to take Scripture out of context and develop a premise that isn’t supportable by the Bible.

If people can honestly disagree over eschatology, who are you to say that he’s taking anything out of context? Best you can say is that he’s taking Scripture out of YOUR interpretation of the context.