Posted on 01/29/2011 7:06:07 PM PST by Benchim
Salvation has three legs supporting the entire doctrine. Leg 1: The first Leg on the Stool is Belief in Christ. Belief means to steadfastly trust in the fact-- that Jesus is the Son of God. The Greek word is pistevo. "For God so greatly loved the world that He gave up His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
You will find nothing in the definition requiring "obedience" or "sinless" conduct . This is the foundation of antinomianism. John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
LEG 2: The second leg is that Christ died and was resurrected to atone for your sins. This in imputed righteousness. Otherwise Christs suffering meant nothing. LEG 3: The third leg which stands the stool is Savlation is a gift- by the grace of God and not as a result of anything you do i.e. "works" except your belief in Christ as the son of God . Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
As usual, you guys have to add your own words to God's scripture to make it mean what you want it to...
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I fall every day...And Jesus picks me back up...There's nothing here about losing salvation...
You indeed might just be saved: “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: Galatians 1:4
That's right...And you might not be saved...There is a contingency...
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And only IF you remain in his kindness. "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" Rom. 11:22–23
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
In HIS goodness, not yours...There will come a time when Gentiles are no longer in God's goodness...There's nothing here about losing salvation...
And only IF you endure: Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. (2 Tim. 2:11–12).
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
You made that up...You are putting words into God's mouth that He didn't say...Have you no shame???
And only IF you stand firm: [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Mark 13:13
Endure what and to the end of what??? You are back on the other side of the Cross...
It’s a little more complicated than that. Check Scripture.
You gotta be kiddin' me...Check 'your' scripture after you twisted and perverted it???
Because WHERE he went tells us HOW. He didn't go with Jesus to Heaven because Jesus didn't go to Heaven. Jesus went to the place of the dead.
Here's the Modern English Version of the Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. AMEN.
Metmom: You’re changing the topic of the thread.
I am not. The topic of the thread is Salvation. Topics can and do wander BTW, but I am staying on topic.
Metmom: The thief was initially mocking Jesus but had a change of heart. He had no opportunity to any thing more about it than repent and believe.
Absolutely wrong. There were two criminals (not thieves we don't know their crime) only one of them mocked our Savior. The one who made it to paradise didn't mock him.
Reread the passage. You've got the story wrong: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023:38-43&version=NIV
Metmom: That was what Jesus acknowledged was enough for the thief to be with Him.
Nonsense, Jesus acknowledged no such thing.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Nota Bene that there is only one prepositional phrase modifying the verb - "with me" which is in turn modified by "in paradise".
Jesus clearly and unequivocally states that the criminal who doesn't mock will be with him in the place of the dead known as paradise.
How is “true conversion” measured? I mean how does one know if one is saved and when?
My life is oftentimes much like Pauls record of struggling with the things we know we should do and find ourselves doing otherwise...and it’s not about the law..it’s about life as He wants us to walk with Him in it.
I see my imperfections and failures every day....snapping at my boss because she misjudged a situation entirely. Only to know I needed to apologize for snapping, but not necessarily for pointing out she was in error. It’s the manner of my approach where conviction comes....Now I know that I’m right..and she’s wrong...and I know I don’t want to appologize,...but the Lord can be relentless and though He understands He still prompts action on my part. So I stuggle a bit and then do what He says. By then the boss knows I was right...but the apology for how I approached her still needed to be. And then she apologizes etc.etc.
Our walk seems to almost always be about relationships in one form or another...and how we conduct ourselves in them. I tend to be straightforward...and that is not always appreciated. Thus there are times I need to curb my approach to people.
My point is ...there is no “law” about this...rather an abiding in Him and listening to His voice when he speaks in our affairs in the world.
re: “So without works our faith is useless unto salvation. That sounds like we are saved, in some part, by our works, no?
No - that’s not what I said nor what the Bible says. James 2:14-26 says:
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
You see, I think you are confusing two things. Salvation can never be obtained by human righteousness (works) - if it could, Christ never would have had to die on the cross for our sins. Paul says in Ephesians 2:9-11, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith - and, notice he says that by our salvation we are “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,. . .” In other words, God saved us not only to be with Him in heaven - but to get busy doing the works He has for us to do.
The James passages and Paul’s letters appear to be contradictoy, but that’s only because people think they are both speaking of the same thing. But, they are not. Paul is speaking of justification and salvation through faith - James is talking about living out the Christian life through our deeds (works).
In other words, Paul says that we are saved by God’s grace through faith - not by our personal works of righteousness - they could never measure up to removing the guilt of our sin. What James is speaking of is showing our faith by our deeds.
James is teaching that if a person says they are saved because they have faith that Jesus is God’s Son, and believe that He died on the cross for their sins - great - that’s good, but even Satan believes the same thing and is not saved - so, James says, if that person never shows any evidence by their actions, deeds, works that they have truely allowed Jesus to be Lord of their lives - then that person’s faith is worthless. James is not saying that you save yourself through your works - he is saying that the absense of works are evidence that that person never really allowed Christ to be their Lord. They are phony Christians.
re: “It’s sound “Christian” doctrine espoused by men. That’s philosophy. It’s not Biblical at all, though it has become traditional.”
No, Sir, that’s not true. I’ve just given you two good Bible passages to illustrate that, yes, salvation is by God’s grace and faith in Christ - not by our works. Yet, the Scriptures also say that works of righteousness ought to be a part of a real Christian’s life. If they are not - that Christian is probably a hypocrite. We cannot make that determination - only God can.
What? Where is that written?
Where is what written? That Christ has fulfilled the law for us? That we are no longer in bondage to Jewish ceremonial rites? That we are still required to obey the Ten Commandments?
No doctrine, just DIY religion. Just your opinion, there are gazillion others. Every YOPIO thinks that he "cracked the code". Each one is his own pope, church, and god
"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth"
Even the heretical devil himself saw the error of what he started:
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”(Martin Luther)
No doctrine, just DIY religion. Just your opinion, there are gazillion others. Every YOPIO thinks that he "cracked the code". Each one is his own pope, church, and god
"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth"
Even the heretical devil himself saw the error of what he started:
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”(Martin Luther)
So the Bible is in error when it say in 1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Every single fundamentalist I ever met. Ask how many of them use the Pill or IUD's which are proven abortifacients. They chant outside the abortion mills, and then go home all smug and secure while they kill babies in the womb.
Excellent good.
So then:
X professes faith in Jesus Christ as his personal savior and does nothing going forward.
Y professes faith in Jesus Christ as his personal savior and does works.
They both die. All else equal, which one goes to Heaven?
Now wasn’t that fun? Of course it wasn’t the apostles. It was the people in the crowd which is exactly my point. Jesus explained to the people what works meant. If the leadership of the church try to tell us that works are part of salvation we have Jesus words explaining what He means. All these people who post verses trying to tell us that works are needed for salvation does not come from God. Satan always tries to imply that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient. It was sufficient and complete.
Yeah don't you just hate those pesky facts and Biblical references that contradict a perfectly good man made theory; Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;
Yeah it is just so mean of us Catholics quoting the Bible and making you guys look so foolish and Biblically ignorant
Proof?
re: “All else being equal, which one goes to heaven?”
Possibly both, possibly neither - it depends on what you mean by “professed faith” in Christ.
I’m not sure that you understand what professing faith, in the Biblical sense means.
It sounds to me that you believe “professing faith” is nothing more than an acknowledgement that something is true - i.e. that Jesus existed and that He is who He claimed to be - God’s Son, and that He died on the cross and rose from the dead.
You see, one may believe all those things to be true and yet, still not be a Christian. Believing a given set of facts are true does one no good unless one “acts” upon that belief.
For example, I may sit in a dark room and know intellectually that if I flip on the light switch, the lights will come on and I’ll be able to see. However, that knowledge does me no good until I physically go over and flip the light switch on.
So, you see, professing belief in Christ means much more than just believing some facts to be true. Recall how James pointed out that even the devil and demons “believe” and yet are not saved.
The reason demons aren’t saved is that even though they know and believe all the facts about Jesus to be true - they don’t profess/confess Him to be their Lord and Savior - they don’t allow Him Lordship, rulership, over their lives. It’s the same with people too.
See what Paul wrote in Romans 10:9-10 “that if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
The word “confess” means more than just an acknowledgement that something is true - it is an act of the will to not only admit that it is true, but to also place oneself under, to live by the truth you are confessing. To confess Jesus is Lord means to place oneself under His Lordship. He is to be Lord of your life - ones actions following that confession should give evidense as to whether you truely confesses Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
The moderator won't let it be publicly viewed, but Join up and just read some of the comments from your Fellow fundamentalists. The only ones opposing these abortifacinets are the Catholics and a Metathiest by the name of Remy
I fall every day...And Jesus picks me back up... There's nothing here about losing salvation...
You are the one just making things up. There is nothing here about Jesus picking you up. But Isaiah warns about the consequences of falling - “Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.” Isaiah 8:14-16 So just be careful, because "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" See, there is a consequence to falling.
There is a contingency...
More than one, as I pointed out. Among others, “provided you remain in his kindness… if we endure… he who stands firm to the end will be saved… and only then “God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” So again, as Paul said, you must be ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ Believing what you believe requires you to ignore the clear words of Scripture.
You are putting words into God's mouth that He didn't say
Interesting that you believe a Bible written almost 1600 years after Christ died to be the one true translation. But that is another topic.
So many translations, but the meaning is still clear: 11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; NIV
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: KJV
11It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; NASB
The point here – regardless of translation – is that we must do something lest we be denied or disowned.
Endure what and to the end of what??? You are back on the other side of the Cross...
Keep reading Mark for a clue –“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.” Mark 13:22 Mark was warning against people like Luther and Calvin, among others. You need to endure with the Truth Christ taught.
And what are those consequences? What does Scripture say?
Well, let me put it this way. Do see the sacrifice of Christ atoning for sin (totally forgiving by imputed righteousness). I guess you don’t? Did Christ die for our sins or not. Why did the thief on the cross receive instant salvation without all that obedience you want. By the way ,the Ten Commandments were discussed by Jesus as reported in Mark 20 as totally unattainable, because of the lack of defined conduct necessary to comply. Praise God for our imputed righteousness.
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