Posted on 01/29/2011 7:06:07 PM PST by Benchim
The verse you so perversely used to try to denigrate true believers and tried to use as evidence of Jesus insufficiency is astounding. Paul, in his writings consistently expressed sorrow for not being good enough. In Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;” was absolute heresy.
You bolded the words “lacking of the afflictions of Christ” but didn’t include the previous words “fill up on my part” which indicates that Paul was saying his afflictions were lacking as it compares to Jesus afflictions. He was rejoicing that he had suffered afflictions for “His body’s sake, which is the church” and that it would help fill the cap between his sufferings and Jesus sufferings. Paul would never, ever have even allowed the thought to cross his mind that Jesus suffering and sacrifice were in any way insufficient.
The only thing I can say is that I will pray for you and hope you realize the error of your heresy. I won’t even address the pomposity of your tone used in that post.
>> ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ <<
Perhaps further study and praying on your part may be in order.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
But what does ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ mean? It is the Word ofGod and you just can’t ignore this. And why does God say that He will "repay each person according to what they have done.” He doesn't say He will repay for what they believe.
And how do you understand the fact that the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24— where it is rejected as a description of how we are justified? You just can’t ignore Scripture that doesn’t support your non-scriptural beliefs.
This is not an either/or thing, but rather "Both And" ALL of Scripture.
So you are now saying that "works" are necessary
The verse you so perversely used to try to denigrate true believers and tried to use as evidence of Jesus insufficiency is astounding.
Is English your first language, seriously. The plain reading of the plain text says that Paul must make up for what is lacking or missing.
No, you are right, He doesn’t. He says that those who are saved will be rewarded for the things they have done for Him as indicated in Romans 2.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
How faithful was that person in believing? Did they ever falter. Of course he also told us that those who dedicate their lives to helping others and teaching others would be rewarded for that service and faithfulness to the needs of His “little children”.
>>in James 2:24— where it is rejected as a description of how we are justified<<
Ok, let’s look at James 2 but let’s include the previous verses and our understanding of what the description of what works was meant.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Here they are asking about being justified by works, thinking that works meant some action of doing something. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?Here they are asking if it was the works (Abraham physically taking his son to sacrifice him) that made Abrahams faith perfect. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.In this verse we get the answer to that question. It says that “Abraham believed God”. It was the belief that justified the faith. Abrahams belief was so strong and true that he acted but it wasn’t the action that justified, it was the belief. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.Now from this verse we can begin to understand the following verses from John 6. “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Now you can put the two passages into better perspective. Jesus explained that the “works” God was talking about was a strong belief that would generate action. It isn’t the action that is rewarded but the belief that cause the action.
Now we can go back up to the top and understand that Jesus said the reward will be for the deeds that were because of belief but it was the belief that justified.
I pray this helps.
>>He doesn't say He will repay for what they believe<<
No, you are right, He doesn’t. He says that those who are saved will be rewarded for the things they have done for Him as indicated in Romans 2.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
How faithful was that person in believing? Did they ever falter. Of course he also told us that those who dedicate their lives to helping others and teaching others would be rewarded for that service and faithfulness to the needs of His “little children”.
>>in James 2:24— where it is rejected as a description of how we are justified<<
Ok, let’s look at James 2 but let’s include the previous verses and our understanding of what the description of what works was meant.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Here they are asking about being justified by works, thinking that works meant some action of doing something.
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?Here they are asking if it was the works (Abraham physically taking his son to sacrifice him) that made Abrahams faith perfect.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.In this verse we get the answer to that question. It says that “Abraham believed God”. It was the belief that justified the faith. Abrahams belief was so strong and true that he acted but it wasn’t the action that justified, it was the belief.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.Now from this verse we can begin to understand the following verses from John 6.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Now you can put the two passages into better perspective. Jesus explained that the “works” God was talking about was a strong belief that would generate action. It isn’t the action that is rewarded but the belief that cause the action.
Now we can go back up to the top and understand that Jesus said the reward will be for the deeds that were because of belief but it was the belief that justified.
I pray this helps.
Believe as you will. I denounce it as heresy.
Jesus said he did not come for the righteous, but for sinners
It is not our sin that damns us, because all men sin daily.. what damns men is the lack of a Savior.
If sin was the deciding factor..no man could be saved
Exactly ..
Is the Lord that saved you unable to keep you?
This would be the same God that let Adam and Eve walk away from Him. weren't they "saved" yet they walked away and took the rest of us with them.
This is such an old argument ...but it persists because men like to earn everything they get..even their salvation.. They want to stand before God have have God congratulate them that they made it, that they were good enough and holy enough to make it into His HOLY PERFECT presence..
The truth is not one man deserves to be saved, we are all filthy in our hearts and minds, even if we do not carry out the thought..ALL of us have committed murder in our heart.. looking at a woman or man in lust is adultery , saying OMG is blasphemy .
We all every one of us stand before God GUILTY ...Only having an advocate with the Father makes us legally enter into His Presence , Only having a Savior, that bore our sins and took the punishment we deserve lets us avoid hells fire..
Only having our sin transferred to the perfect lamb of God makes us clean before the Father
Just as we need that advocate/Savior/ Lamb to make us worthy to enter into the presence of God.. we need that same advocate/Savior/ Lamb to keep us..
When we are saved..our heart is changed, we no longer are a slave to the flesh, we become slaves to Christ, His holiness becomes our desire..we no longer want to sin or have to sin..we now hate sin . We desire not to sin, not because we fear the loss of our salvation..but because the Holy Spirit works in us to conform us to the image of Christ.. we desire to became more and more like Him
The Holy Spirit of God, which indwells every saved believer, reveals our sin to us, and we are given the gift of repentance.. drawn to Christ..
That new heart we were given desires God above everything this world offers..
We are saved by Christ and we are kept by Christ.. we could never keep ourselves
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Changing the topic is a method of evasion.. The question of How is supremely more important than where ..good catch
Excellent response!
God Bless
But Scripture simply doesn't say this. God … will repay each person according to what they have done.” Not what they believe.
Scripture couldn't be more clear. You start with the premise of “faith alone” and then try to give meaning to verses that isn’t there, while Scripture actually says the opposite of what you believe.
Try this – instead of trying to reconcile your “faith alone” belief to Scripture, start with Scripture. Start with James, just for fun. James shows how useless it is to wish someone well without actually helping them, illustrating this by pointing to the cases of Abraham and Rahab. He then forthrightly states: "Do you want to be shown … that faith apart from works is barren?"
“You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:20-26
Just as we need that advocate/Savior/ Lamb to make us worthy to enter into the presence of God.. we need that same advocate/Savior/ Lamb to keep us..
When we are saved..our heart is changed, we no longer are a slave to the flesh, we become slaves to Christ, His holiness becomes our desire..we no longer want to sin or have to sin..we now hate sin . We desire not to sin, not because we fear the loss of our salvation..but because the Holy Spirit works in us to conform us to the image of Christ.. we desire to became more and more like Him
The Holy Spirit of God, which indwells every saved believer, reveals our sin to us, and we are given the gift of repentance.. drawn to Christ..
That new heart we were given desires God above everything this world offers..
We are saved by Christ and we are kept by Christ.. we could never keep ourselves
AMEN!
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
And God promised to send a Savior to pay for their sin too.
Another excellent analysis in which you have correctly used scripture to interpret scripture, instead of using your human interpretations as many are apt to do.
God Bless
Galatians 3:1-14
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Romans 4
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Finally....
Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Since we’ve put on Christ, His righteousness becomes ours. Saying that we’re judged by our works, then is not an issue, because our sins are forgiven, and Christ’s righteousness imputed to us when God sees us, He sees us having fulfilled the Law; no sin and our works as *good* works.
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