Catholic Word of the Day: PRESBYTERIANS, 01-25-11

CatholicReference.net ^ | 01-25-11 | Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary

[RnMomof7]

Fr. Hardon's "Modern Catholic Dictionary" was published in 1980. The PCUSA probably wasn't quite as far off the rails back then.

That really doesn't matter.. there are no Congregational or Episcopal Presbyterians as he states .... He is assuming that Presbyterian also describes doctrine and it does not ...

[RnMomof7]

The presbyterian government is composed of ruling and teaching elders (pastors). The church in scripture outlines the roles in the church'''That is pastor, elder, deacon, teachers.

Christ alone is head of the Church (Eph. 5:23; Col. 1:18)
Elders are chosen by the people (Acts 6:1-11)
All elders are equal (Tit. 1:5, 7; Acts 20:17, 28)
Each church has at least two elders (Acts 14:23)
Elders are ordained by presbytery (1 Tim. 4:14)
The right of appeal (from smaller to wider assembly—Acts 15)

Actually our form of government (representative government) finds its roots in the presbyterian form of church government

Good article

[aruanan]

Once upon a time, before anything was created, when God in three persons dwelt happily in and of themselves, God the Father said, “Hey, I’ve got a great idea. We’re going to create a universe by and through you, God the Son, and I am, before you create anything at all, going to determine how every single bit of it, from start to finish, from the beginning to the end, from the least quark to the biggest bang, is going to go."

"We will create an entire human race from an original male and female whom I will cause to be tempted and sin and, because of that, subject the rest of the human race to untold millennia of misery and suffering and death, all for my greater glory because it seemed good to me, all the while promising them a means of salvation from that misery I’ve imposed on them as a result of their sin against me that I will have preordained."

"And a really cool thing is that we will tell them that if they listen to what they are told and follow it faithfully, we will hear them and answer them and heal their land but they won’t know that in actuality they won’t be able even to try unless we make a few of them do it and the vast majority we will keep in the bondage of sin and degradation and then hold them responsible for not doing what we created them to be unable to do."

"And the best thing of all, God the Son, is that because I will say that the sin that I will ordain and set into motion, to the very degree and extent that is my good pleasure according to the unfathomable counsel of my will, cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice and since no human will be able or capable or even willing to provide that sacrifice, because I will have made them unable, incapable, and unwilling, YOU are going to have lay aside your glory and the fellowship we enjoy to enter the human race and grow up among those who--but for the few I will have made to act to the contrary--won’t listen because I will have made them unable to hear, who won’t see because I will have blinded them to the truth, and who won’t ask for forgiveness for something they were hopeless to avoid doing because I will have made them incapable of doing so and then have the ever loving crap beaten out of you, scourged to within an inch of your life, before being made to carry the instrument of your torture and death before jeering crowds, because I will have made them do that, to the place where others, because of my decree before the foundations of the earth according to my own good counsel, will drive spikes through your wrists and hoist you up to hang between criminals—and the best part of all, at that moment you are about to die, I’ll turn my back on you!"

"But it will all be okay, right, because in three days, I’ll raise you from the dead so that we can say that this proves you are who we already know you are without ever the necessity of our creating a universe or even a human race to begin with and then declare faith in that as the ostensible means by which we confer saving grace on the humans but without telling them, until John Calvin comes along, that what they think is turning to us in faith to freely receive the gift of forgiveness and salvation is every bit as programmed and inevitable as the fate of the majority of the human race on their way to burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire for refusing to believe that which I will have made them unable to believe since before I will have ever created anything at all, and this all for my praise and glory. How does that sound?”

And does God the Son say, “Wait a second, you’re going to create a universe with a world of conscious beings made in our image, screw them over in the most horrendous ways imaginable, hold them responsible for what you’re going to compel them to do, and then, near the end of the whole shebang, make ME suffer for every sin they ever committed without their ever having had the capacity to decide otherwise and die so that those who don’t even have the capacity to make anything but a faux choice will be “saved”? And that will make the relationship you and I and the Holy Spirit are sharing right now better how?” or does he say, “Hey, that sounds great and we’ll call it the GOOD NEWS!”

[NCLaw441]

Perhaps it is a good thing that none of can authoritatively say what the nature of God is. At some point we all rely on faith. For me personally, I am comfortable with the concept of God who is powerful enough to create us free enough so that He does NOT know how we are going to choose (although I imagine, having seen human nature long enough, He, as we, can usually make a pretty good guess).

But in my view, it does not matter so much. God is who He is, and our “decision” on what to believe about God does not change Him. While I believe that God is all good and yet just, there is nothing my belief could do if He did create the earth and man under the scenario you describe. God COULD be less than just, and less than good. Heck, I’ve read enough Greek and Roman mythology to know that.

The bottom line (for me, anyway) is that I cannot know, but I can believe in God, and in the Bible as His holy word, and in His Son as the salvation of the world. There are pretty good arguments based on human evidence for these things, but one does have to be willing to believe.

I always chuckle when I hear of someone commenting along these lines: “I could never believe in a God who.... (insert any number of things here, usually something like: lets innocent people get sick and die, while evil people prosper, etc.)” I certainly PREFER an all-loving, just yet merciful God, but I am just smart enough to know that I am not smart enough to define God. He is who He is.

[Judith Anne]

Absolutely outstanding post. Calvinism in a “nut” shell.

[Judith Anne]

Truthfully, I have never seen a Presbyterian say anything contrary to your post.

One of life’s great mysteries, I guess.

[Judith Anne]

Did you see post 23? I wonder why it’s not getting any comments from our separated brethren?

[Judith Anne]

Meanwhile, they are ALL OVER the Catholic threads.