Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
Irenaeus is not infallibly inspired. Neither are his interpreters. I wouldn't want to be handing my anti-theology on the writings of men.
You are wrong. Christ destroys the earth upon His return.
2 Peter 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[b] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
But it's not proof. It's an opinion. You don't seem to understand that by trotting out Irenaeus to try an prove something you cannot prove; the exact date of Revelation.
No one said Irenaeus was infallible but he is the closest resource with direct knowledge as to the timing of the writing of Revelation. To directly contradict someone who studied under the person who was a direct Apostle of John is foolish. His statement is the most authoritative we have as to the time. His statement of when Revelation was written and his statement of not knowing the name of the Anti Christ puts Preterists in the category of error.
I wasn’t talking about the remaking of the earth, but all the judgments in Revelation, the bowl judgments, etc.
Look, Revelation is difficult enough to interpret. What’s really going to happen if going to happen whether we get it right or not. Some one is going to be surprised and disappointed no matter which way it falls out.
Pre-trib Rapture fits the best with Bible prophecy, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it if it’s wrong.
Honestly, I’ve never seen people get so hot and bothered over a doctrine which has less impact on one’s salvation than end times prophecy.
The “hot and bothered” has more to do with attempting to diminish support among evangelicals for the modern state of Israel than any sort of grave eschatological concern, imho. We’ve got a “ringer” or two on the forum who only push that one button constantly.
Actually, the Bible is filled with the teaching of predestination/election. What Calvinism teaches is actually Double predestination, which is not supported in the Bible. I would challenge any to find a passage where the Lord says he has chosen some for damnation.
As you rightly quoted John 3:16, all who believe will be saved.
If a person is saved, it means God has chosen him and given him grace. If a person is lost, it means that the person has resisted God's grace (Romans 8:29,30).
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Ephesians 1:4-6 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.<
Ephesians 2:8 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
John 15:16 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name
Predestination is a deep teaching. We try to reason that if God elected some for eternal life, than he must have elected some for eternal damnation. But scripture is very clear that God wants all to be saved. Truth is God has not made known the mystery of predestination and our human minds cannot use logic to explain it.
But it is a profound teaching in which it shows God loves us so much, he has done everything for us. For a believer in Christ this is the ultimate comfort because I know my salvation does not rely on me, a lowly sinner.
Here is a great quote from Martin Luther in regards to predestination:
"God has given men reason so that they can milk cows, bridle horses, and know that a hundred gulden are more than ten. Show your wisdom there; be a master and a good helper; use your knowledge. But here, when it come to the question how we are to be saved, in heavenly matters and matters of faith, stop your reason, keep still, listen and say: Here I can no longer operate; this is different from the matters related above. Curb your reason, therefore, and say: I do not understand this; I will not figure or measure it but will keep still and listen, for it is beyond my measuring and is incomprehensible to reason.
Predestination/election is spoken of extensively by the Apostle Paul in Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.
Sorry for such a long post, but I feel this is an extremely important part of scripture, which can bring great comfort to believers, despite our not being able to comprehend it fully.
God Bless
Stan Deyo's site
Stan Deyo? Stan "I'm a double nought spy" Deyo? Whose claims to "above top secret" clearance have been shown to be bogus, and on that account is either a charlatan or a fool, or both?
He spins a compelling tale, I'm sure. Maybe the Men in Black
stop by, and fill him in on the latest conspiracy buzz.
Wise words to live by.
I’m not sure who’s getting ‘hot and bothered’; I’m certainly not. But I do not believe that a secret rapture is scriptural. And that’s unfortunate because I’d REALLY like to be removed now, if not sooner :)
If you read Ezekiel, or about the plagues (for two, in particular), you’ll read that God has an awesome way of sanctifying the believers and protecting them. When he poured out all the plagues, the children of Israel weren’t affected. Same goes for the destruction he was telling Ezekiel was coming. He told Ezekiel to have the scribe mark the foreheads of those that sigh and cry over the abominations and he would not touch them.
Also the blood on the door jambs would protect his children. The point is, believers will be protected during the tribulation but they will not be removed. We don’t leave until Christ’s real, loud, visual return and that’s where he destroys everything, except us.
1) That's basically a Romanist/traditionalist argument. Fine if you wish to make it and hang your hat on it. It only carries weight with other traditionalists.
2) His statement is not as crystal clear as you make it out to be. There are original language expert who cannot say for sure that his comment was a direct reference to the book of Revelation.
3) You're treating his somewhat unclear words as if there are infallible and trump all other arguments.
4) Many good conservative theologians disagree with the traditionalist AD96 date preferring a pre-AD70 date.
5) You choose to ignore or discount all the counter arguments. You can't win an argument that way.
6) Using this then to claim preterists or other non-traditionalists are in error is pure cop out.
Very entertaining. Thank you. I am in need of some hilarious inanity this morning. This fits the bill very neatly.
One of the most ignored verses by rapturenaut dispensationalists and associated futurists.
Good catch. You're a trooper. I generally ignore our friend's posts cuz they hurt my eyes and head.
Satan never ceases, does he?
Regardless of whatever interpretation of the end times someone has, if they don’t support Israel, God is NOT going to bless them.
Personally, this is one of my favorite threads going about Israel.
Pray For the Peace of Jerusalem(1/15/11)[Prayer]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2657354/posts
Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
In reading Revelation there is continual reference to those left on the earth not repenting of their sin, and wehn God destroys Babylon, it’s for the evil in it.
What other reason do you propose for God poring out judgment on the earth? The fun of it? He has nothing better to do?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:6–8 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
On the Last Day, when Jesus Christ returns visibly and in glory, our bodies will be raised from the dead, restored, and reunited with our souls:
John 5:28–29 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
1 Corinthians 15:51–54 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
In the eternal presence of the Lord, that is, in heaven, we will enjoy pleasures forevermore, in body and soul together:
Psalm 16:9–11 9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, 10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy Oned see decay. 11 You have madee known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
God Bless
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