The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[count-your-change]

Word for word? Verbatim? Obviously not word for word but then I hardly think that is contemplated by the use of the term inspired”.

But you’ve something more in mind, Yes?

[metmom]

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Who do Catholics have funerals for? All the failed Catholics who took communion and still died?

[metmom]

Peter's statement in Acts 10:14

But Peter said, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."

that he repeated three times to God, lays to rest the blasphemy of transubstantiation.

For that matter, Peter was such a stickler for the Law, that AFTER his conversion and filling with the Holy Spirit, he STILL slipped back into Judaism.

So either Peter ate flesh and drank blood and lied later to God.

Or not.

[Alex Murphy]

Who do Catholics have funerals for? All the failed Catholics who took communion and still died?

For Democrat politicians, as fundraisers.

[metmom]

And the verse they keep ignoring in this whole event is this one....

John 6:63

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

[metmom]

Just to make it clear who's saying what in this quoted part as the way you posted it left the incorrect conclusion that I said all of the italicized portions.....

mb:Produce the Pauline writings that prove the Trinity. I have challenged the antiCatholics a number of times to do so and they have sadly failed.

mm:On the contrary, they have been demonstrated many times. If you choose not to believe hem, nobody can help that.

Nobody can force you to accept he proof given. That doesn't mean it wasn't given.

mb:Can you prove who wrote the Gospels? Or much of the NT? Come on - I challenged you guys then and challenge you now.

mm:What are the traditions that were passed down to believers in the churches to which Paul wrote? How do you know what they were? How can you verify them?What are the traditions that were passed down to believers in the churches to which Paul wrote? How do you know what they were? How can you verify them?

mb:Okay; I will accept that you have given up on the idea that you know who wrote the Gospels. If not, please let me know. I cannot verify the Church documentation any more than you can. I believe; I do not claim authority. I believe in the Faith, not the little bunch that you run with.

Try answering MY questions about church tradition instead of your own.

[boatbums]

It is not I who feels this way (ask my wife), but St. Paul. Take it up with him.

Oh, so now you like Paul, interesting. I'll have to remember that. The thing is, though, is that Paul is speaking about women asserting spiritual authority over their husbands. He also said women should not be in the position of Pastor over men, and I agree. However, THIS is not church nor am I your wife, so Paul's directions do not apply in this case. Nice try, though, in trying to silence me. This is not the first time you have said words to the effect of your resistance to anything a woman might teach you. Be careful, you may be missing a lot of blessings and truth from God with that attitude.

[xone]

The question, though, was whether Luther believed in a type of predestination by which God controlled the destinies of every single human being no matter where they ended up, in heaven or in eternal torment. I think these paragraphs from The Bondage of the Will indicate that at the time he wrote this work he did.

And yet 'your thinking he did' doesn't make it so. BOW is chiefly about the sovereignity of God. 5 yrs after BOW, not a trace of double predestination within Lutheranism as a doctrine. Because it isn't explicit in Scripture.

13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.

14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.

Conversion

[boatbums]

Are you saying that I am casting pearls before swine?

Are you calling me a pig?

[presently no screen name]

I know it can be hard to read whole sentences, but try here's the entire verse for you

Being as flippant as you are - reading is not the problem. The problem is you understanding it!

Iscool UNDERSTANDS it. HERE, I'll give you the reason why Iscool does and you don't.

1 Cor 2:14 "The man WITHOUT the Spirit does not accept the things that COME from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

And you belong with this crowd who thought wrongly because they DIDN'T know who HE was And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Isn't that what you/catholics/church are doing? Eating his flesh? Catholics think like the rebellious crowd! It's not a news flash to many of us here or elsewhere though.

That's why He didn't respond. He KNEW they didn't know HIM - like in His own town, he couldn't do many miracles because they didn't know Him - they 'thought' they did. "Aren't you....? They were thinking 'worldly'. Like the Vatican - worldly to the core.

[boatbums]

Thank you for your excellent discernment. The OT believers were baptized through the cloud and through the sea and they ate and drank of the same spiritual food that all do who believe in Jesus Christ. An amazing truth that Paul taught by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We all are saved in the same way regardless of whether they looked forward or we look backward - it is by faith in the only Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. God is so good!

[Cronos]

Dear Metmom,

We believe that our Lord, Jesus Christ IS God.

He promises us eternal life.

Jesus died on the cross to save us all from sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes

the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God.

Understand this --> Jesus Christ IS God. Disregard what anyone else may tell you -- he is not just a man, not just a created being, but God.

Regards,
Cronos

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen. Praise God!!!

Thank you so much for your testimony, dear sister in Christ!

[Cronos]

Jesus died on the cross to save us all from sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes

the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God.

Like ours, his human nature is destined for eternal life; but unlike ours, it is perfectly exempt from sin, the cause of death Rom 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

; ⇒ Heb 4:15.

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

The beatitude of eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God. It is supernatural, as is the grace that leads us there. 2 Pet 1:4; cf.

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

⇒ Jn 17:3.

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Although it is God’s grace that enables us, for these acts of ours, God tells us Rom. 2:6–7

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal. 6:6–10

6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers

Remember clearly at the end of John 6, when Christ asks his disciples if they too will leave Him, when He told them they would need to eat His Body and drink His blood, then Peter said

"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Jesus alone holds the words of eternal life because He is the Word of God (the bible is the written word, but the LIVING Word is Jesus Christ)

[Cronos]

One of the things I do admire about Methodists is the personal life of John Wesley. Except for the hopley affair, it was above reproach.

I didn't read up much on Methodism until the thread where the Calvinists saying " Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan." where I was puzzled by their hatred for Methodists. And going by the logic that what they hate has got to have merit :-P (like their hatred of pentecostals), I read up a bit ("a bit")

His belief in the Real Presence was highlighted.

[Cronos]

Geneva Presbyterianism hates us, got to be doing something right.

True enough. However, the Presbyterians do consider the Pentecostals/Methodist line of thinking as "damnable heresy"

And what's kind of funny is that (from wikipedia) While Geneva was historically considered a Protestant city, there are over twice as many Roman Catholics (39.5%) as Protestants (17.4%) living in the Canton -- what is SAD though is 22% of the inhabitants claim no religion.

[Cronos]

IMHO the Lutheran view of justification is close (but not exactly of course) to the Catholic point of view. Luther taught the necessity of baptism for justification, Lutherans practise infant baptism, and Lutherans reject the Calvinist double-predestination and I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that one can lose one's salvation

Trent stated that Justification was "not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man"

[Cronos]

Xone -- Dr. E's point was the Luther taught it -- on that point, I agree that it seems like opinion over whether he did or did not teach it.

Whether it was every incorporated in the Confessional documents or not is a different matter and as you have pointed out, it wasn't.

So, as you have confirmed the Lutherans never believed in double predestination. I have the highest regard for the LCMS and WELS (mostly due to redgolum, an LCMS poster who is staunch in his faith yet kindly teaches and explains what he believes and is civil) and do not believe they "slipped into liberalism".

without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight

from the catechism

For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

[Cronos]

You may believe what you wish, that is your choice, but yet, if one reads (John 6:26-72) especially (John 6:52-72), it is impossible to interpret what Christ is saying as a metaphor or as just spiritual. The words used demand a literal interpretation -- "eat" and "drink". Because Jesus starts off describing manna (John 6:31-32) and then talks of giving food that will be really eaten.

Furthermore the very language he uses "to drink someone's blood and eat someone's flesh" -- as I said, even in Hindi, in a vegetarian society, one uses the ultimate threat of violence which is "Mein tera khoon pie jaonga" - "I will drink your blood". If you take it that Christ was speaking spiritually, you would then understand it that Christ was promising eternal life to those who committed violence against Christ.

[Cronos]

I'm still waiting for your exegetical explanation of why you keep denying Christ's very words

John 6:53-58

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”