The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[count-your-change]

I appreciate the history lesson but I find it difficult to see why current American government policy is either Catholic or Protestant seeing that Presidents of both persuasions went to some lengths to keep state craft apart from religious.

Nixon had a Quaker background and Kennedy was Catholic but Viet Nam, for example, was neither A Quaker or Catholic war. So the truth of the below......well, views may vary. I don't do policy analysis's for the U.S. government.

“However; we must consider that the current American (Protestant) policy in the Balkans and in the Middle East is directly resulting in the extermination of the native Catholics such as the Chaldeans in Iraq and the Copts in Egypt”.

“Not justification, just pointing out that the Protestants were hardly sweetness and light. Cotton Mather was a case in point.”

Quite so but not my contention otherwise.

“The Catholic Encyclopedia is not a bad source, but not authoritative. Try the Vatican.va website instead.”

But it does have the stamp of approval of Catholic authority and agrees with Catholic authority so would the Vatican web site say something contrary?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Augustine's perspective was on single predestination of certain individuals.

That is an error. Clearly, you may not have read Augustine's Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints or the many excerpts from it that have been posted on this thread.

If the truth actually mattered to Roman Catholics, they would read the works they're tossing around like popcorn.

Was it hidden in a Dominican trunk somewhere and Calvin fetched it out?

It may have been in a trunk, under lock and key by Rome. But thankfully, men were printing the Bible in a variety of languages and as men, Calvin included, began to read the Bible for themselves, the truth became clear.

Rome stood condemned by its error, as it does today.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You added the word ONLY to my statement.

Your post stands as evidence against your defense. Try to post within the rules.

[MarkBsnr]

But this isn't what the early church fathers taught nor what the Church says it teaches. Scripture is infallible. All other writings are not so. You could argue that the Church is the only ones who can correctly interpret what the infallible scriptures says. But then that begs the question as to how they can come up with their various notions of Mary, the Eucharist, relics, etc. when there is none of this in scripture.

Many beliefs of the Church existed from the time of Jesus, and preceded the Scriptures, in many cases by 150 or 200 years. You say that the Eucharist is not in Scripture. We say it is and have the verses that we use to justify it.

The fact is the Catholic Church has included works of other authors that was not considered infallible-relying upon documents subject to error, to justify erroneous positions. It would be the same as if Augustine quoted Jerome giving it the same status as the infallible scriptures. This would never have occured to them.

Individual works of Church Fathers which do not meet the Magisterial approval are not considered infallible. Works that are approved are brought into the Church and considered part of the Church. Jerome was correct in many ways, as well. That does not mean that all Jerome was correct.

[aruanan]

Post 2700 was not attributed anywhere.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=2747#2747

Lifting someone else’s work and posting as if it were your own work is plagerism.

Again, you're not following things carefully enough. I was responding to a reply by the moderator about Crono's reply to him or her in #2706 that referred to a quote of Augustine in #2700. It appears that you're confusing your multiple claims of plagiarism. Neither I nor the Moderator in his post (#2802) to which I was responding were referring to #2747 but to an earlier post that linked to #2706 and then back to #2700.

[Religion Moderator]

I do not doubt that Catholic.com and WashingtonPost.com are credible sources for quoting their quotes. However, that would not necessarily be true with conspiracy websites, blogs, etc.

If the quote is well known and public domain (e.g. Truman's "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen") then we have no need for additional source information.

Likewise, if it is a Bible quote from a public domain translation such as KJV then no source is required. However, not every translation/paraphrase is public domain - The Message for instance requires attribution under certain circumstances.

It is better to err on the side of caution. If the quote being quoted from a quote on another website is not very well known, then even if the source is credible, source it.

[MarkBsnr]

I already noted more than once that stretching the solid stats from many representative samples ALL ACROSS THE USA [not just a hollow, as intimated], Was a huge extrapolation. That was written as a tweak to hopefully provoke some candid RC's to dig up global statistics.

You claim to be an academic. Let me ask you if a sampling from a small area of the US is reasonable to extrapolate to the entire world.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

CRONOS: we've had Calvinists here who claim that only the KJV is the Bible and anyone following any other is a heretic.

Still waiting for the evidence of this absurd accusation.

[Alamo-Girl]

I recall that one, too. Thank you for bringing it to the table, dear sister in Christ!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Cronos has posted multiple comments written by other people which he has failed to properly attribute, such as post 2700.

You have located one with proper attribution. That is not the post I was complaining about, as anyone can see who reads back the thread.

[Alamo-Girl]

I've never heard a Calvinist say that.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And many of those posts by Cronos which failed to correctly attribute authorship were pulled on this thread. Perhaps you’re unaware of that.

[HossB86]

“Not heretical. Accurate.”

{{snort!}}}

Sooooo.... the Roman Catholic Church ‘wrote’ tbe Bible??? It ‘owns” it, as it is a “[Roman} Catholic document”???

Where’s the copyright notice for it?

Nice try, but fail. Again.

Hoss

[metmom]

Apparently Roman Catholics play fast and loose not only with the words of Scripture, but also the words of other FReepers.

And anyone else they want to quote.

Are you surprised?

[kosta50]

One thing that puzzles me is the Jewish concept of Hell, demons, angels isn't really well defined until after the Exile, i.e. after the exposure to Zoroastrianism

I don't think Jews have a concept of hell that is in any way comparable to the Christian concept of it. Who's to "preside" there given that Jews don't believe in the devil?

[aruanan]

Post 2700 was not attributed anywhere.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=2747#2747

Lifting someone else’s work and posting as if it were your own work is plagerism.

Again, you're not following things carefully enough (this present matter could be emblematic).

Oh, geez. Let me help you out here. Follow the post numbers and the matter in question here, the quote of Augustine from Against Faustus. Here's the regression: 2802 to 2706, 2706 to 2703, 2703 to 2700:

2802
To: Cronos
It is not enough attribution for me. I see that excerpt at Catholic.com which requires attribution. If you didn’t pull it from there, the source will help the mods enforce copyright restrictions which might apply elsewhere.

2,802 posted on February 2, 2011 9:06:18 AM CST by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2706 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

2706
To: Dr. Eckleburg; Religion Moderator
Note, this is what St. Augustine said

"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).

--> enough Attribution for ya?

2,706 posted on February 2, 2011 2:03:36 AM CST by Cronos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2703 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

2703
To: Cronos; Religion Moderator

You’re once again, for the umpteenth time, posting excerpts without attribution, putting Free Republic at risk of copyright infringement.

Do you just do this until you get caught?

2,703 posted on February 2, 2011 1:53:57 AM CST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2700 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

2700

To: Dr. Eckleburg

And, your group's non-scriptural belief in double-predestination goes against the CAlvinist's favorite Early Christian, Augustine

Augustinian predestinationalism.

< SNIP >

Augustine
"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).

Remember also that Augustine rejected any notion of an invisible Church and believed in sacraments (Augustine too believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist)

2,700 posted on February 2, 2011 1:46:44 AM CST by Cronos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2698 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

[count-your-change]

“Because you indicate that the Church passes eternal Judgement.”

I don’t wish to indicate that so I’ll rephrase.

The Catechism states: ““1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”

As you say, “Sure. We categorize heresy as a mortal sin”
then logically heretics, whether excommunicated by formal action or automatically, suffer the punishment set forth in the Catechism?

I understand, “It(the Church) does not and cannot.” pass eternal judgement.

[Alamo-Girl]

You do a lot more than "dabble" in math, dearest sister in Christ! And I thank you for bringing this sidebar to my attention.

Mathematically speaking, zero means that no objects are present – not that objects do not exist. If objects do not exist at all, the condition is null not zero.

Consider if you had a wallet with no money in it, it could be said you have zero currency. However if there were no such thing as currency, then it would not be currency=zero but currency=null.

The mathematical point underscores a theological insight concerning creation ex nihilo. A mathematical point has zero dimensions but it is not nothing (null) – it is a space of zero dimensions. In creation ex nihilo there are no dimensions at all. Or to put it another way, space/time does not apply to the Creator of it.

Also, zero is the only number which is neither positive nor negative. Any number multiplied by zero is zero and therefore division by zero is impossible.

[Religion Moderator]

The part you snipped at 2700 appears to be a quote from Catholic.com.

[kosta50]

Nope. If a person is saved, we are assured in Scripture that the fruit of the Holy Spirit will follow. Therefore, repentance is not a work of our own doing, but a desire and ability given by God to those whom Christ leads home

Then what is there to be perfected? So, the question remains, why do men continue to sin? What purpose does it serve? I think sinless Christians would be a much more persuasive witness to their God then the sinful ones.

No one is "perfected" on earth. All men sin until the day they die.

Why? Because they they can resist the grace given them? What's the point?

No, my eyes were opened and all I saw was man-made superstition and fantastic tales. I am not against God, I don't deny that there is God, whatever God may be, but I certainly have no clue what that God is, and I don't believe anyone else does (contrary to what they say), except what they have been told within the man-made framework of organized religion. (nothing personal)

God willing, He will bring you back to Him. None of us knows for sure about anyone else until their death. If they repented of their sins and believed in Christ with their last breathe, then Scripture tells us they were saved. f not, then not.

Thanks for the kind words. And that's your belief and I respect that. But most Protestants will tell you they "know" they are saved, they "know" they will be in heaven, they "know" their departed ones are in heaven, etc. There is a very clear and unquestionable certainly expressed in their "salvation."