Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
Of course. It's SOP for anything the Catholic church puts in writing. One can never, ever take anything that the Catholic church says at face value.
It never means what it says; it means what the Catholic church says it means.
And that is whatever it takes to make the Catholic church look good or right.
“It has to do with not only the words but with the interpretation of them. If I can defend a heresy using only Scriptural quotations, then the idea that the Bible cannot teach wrong is rendered invalid.”
So you claim but your reasoning is off. For quoting something in defense or opposition is in fact an application of it to the matter at hand and thus an interpretation of it as pertaining to what has been said.
By the way, ever find where Christians are authorized to kill those that disagree with them? Recall our earlier conversation?
They were caught up in Spanish and Portuguese politics and in the attempted seizing of their mission farms in Paraguay. The French went after them for possession of Martinique. Louis XV never did find them guilty of anything.
They certainly have done plenty of mischief in South America with their Liberation Theology and murdered plenty of Roman Catholics there too.
Name some.
They have been accused of poisoning a Pope also after he tried to suppress the Jesuits . Think about that just a minute THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF POISONING A POPE
Anybody prove it?
Men send themselves to hell all by themselves.
Does God give eyes to see and ears to hear to all men, to know the things of God and turn from their sin toward the light of Christ?
Obviously not.
Those whom God has freely gifted with grace through faith in Christ will believe and be brought to repentance, believe and be saved. Those He doesn't so gift will continue to love their sins and pay accordingly.
Thus, we are left with the following truth from God to help our understanding...
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -- 1 Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
As Paul told us in Romans, some men are appointed to be vessels of His grace to display His mercy and others vessels of His wrath to display His justice.
Our job is not to question God by saying "why;" our job is to be grateful for His free gift of grace, and to preach the Gospel to all men, confident those whom God has called to Himself will respond in true faith.
I haven't gone through any of your posting history. I don't particularly care to.
Like everyone who seeks the truth, I throw out 'bones for the dogs 'just to see who yaps'.
Nice to meet you, Nietzche
In fact, the next story I'm working on has the working title; The Day "The PADRE 'Nopu** socked it to the West Virginia National Guard".
Is it written in words of one syllable or less?
Oh, not unlike the Catholics, who say everybody who is not Catholic is doomed to an eternity in Hell?
No Protestant damns to hell any other Christian. Period. In fact, unlike Roman Catholics and their anathemas, we don't damn to hell anyone because we know that God's hand may touch anyone at any moment, just like it touched us.
All we can judge are a man's fruits. That's why we hold out hope for Roman Catholics that while their fruit is so often evil, God may still bring any of them out of the darkness and into the light of Christ alone.
What Cronos is using as "evidence" is one man's opinion written as an opinion piece using sarcasm and hyperbole to make a point.
Cronos has not given us any reason to believe he even knows what "Arminianism" is, repeatedly having used it as a separate denomination.
Innocent VIII’s crusade against the Waldenses wasn’t persecution?
I’d like to see your dictionary definition of what persecution is and see whether a murderous crusade would fit.
They attempted to redefine the Faith. If they were more committed to their beliefs, they could have called their new religion something else. But they renounced the Trinity, and created dualism - the OT God of evil who is at war with the NT God of good and attempted to pass that off as Christianity.
“What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?”
Prayerfully, only those Christ taught his followers. Try as I might I don’t find killing ANYONE allowed and if you do you haven’t said so yet. Is there a reason?
You would never kill anyone for any reason?
bb: And yet it seems we cannot press too far in that direction, for two reasons.
Spirited: While I agree, I also believe that there is a time for every season under the sun, which in this instance means that there comes a time for no longer casting pearls before swine for the reason that what ails the swine is spiritual. He is a beast because his soul is turned in upon itself.
Though we can and must point him to the Way, and we can even exhaust ourselves in the effort to do so, we cannot save him for it is not within our power to do so.
The term “human tools” is from CS Lewis’ masterpiece, “That Hideous Strength.” Some examples of human tools are Karl Marx, Anton LaVey, and Michael Aquino...High Priest of the Temple of Set. As Lewis observed: When the Devil is done with his (human) tools he destroys them.
mb: You would never kill anyone for any reason?
Total red herring. That has absolutely nothing to do with the torture and murder allegedly in the name of Christ which the Catholic church perpetrated on people.
It's inexcusable and simply I cannot fathom the depth of brainwashing and deception that must be done in order for someone to not see it for the hideous evil that it is, and to excuse, justify, or defend said actions of the Catholic church in any way.
Deflecting the argument away from the issue does not give any indication that you oppose or condemn it.
So, let's put it this way.....
Was it Christlike of the Catholic church to torture and kill those who it labeled as heretics against itself? Was it obedient to the teachings of Jesus, or any other writer of the NT?
I am a bakery shop kid, God Himself leads me.
How do you know that you are actually following God?
I believe if a man came up to Billy Graham even at his advanced age and said “I want to be just like you, I will follow you to death” that Billy Graham would rent his clothes and repent in dust and ashes for he has spent his entire life pointing to Jesus.
It would be an interesting episode, wouldn't it? Yet Billy Graham had no problem speaking to vast audiences and world leaders and having them listen to him.
I follow the Good Shepherd, not man, any man.
Again; how do you know. Satan is the brightest angel.
You continued: Is not satan more powerful than any man?
Not a man filled with the Holy Spirit but we are to be respectful evidently because his fate is in God’s hands:
God is more powerful than satan that is true, but let us look at some of satan's powers. Satan is called the lord of this world three times in John. Paul calls him prince of the power of the air and also the god of this world. And Revelation says that he rules the world through deception and sin. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then you can resist; if you are not truly filled, then you can succumb. That is part of the purpose of prayer - to petition God for His Grace and His help.
But to say that we are treat evil with respect is nonsense. It is not the role of Michael the Archangel to be the accuser. It is Michael's role to war on satan - Revelation tells us that there was a war in Heaven.
Also, you give the Church the glory for defining the Trinity. That glory belongs to God. He revealed that Truth in Scripture:
None of these can be used to derive the Trinity; it is only once it is defined, one can look at these verses and say that they do not disagree.
Isaiah 9 gives us 'son of God' which the Jews understood to be a man. And nothing about the Holy Spirit at all.
Matthew 28 had the Father and the Holy Ghost added three or more centuries after they were written.
Romans 8: says Spirit of God which certainly gives no indication that the Holy Spirit is One Person of the Triune God.
Psalms 12 refers to the OT God (of which there is no mention of Trinity).
The Church wrote, massaged, harmonized, chose and preserved the NT Scripture and it also decided on the Septuagint as the OT. You keep speaking of the Church as if it were simply another club. All Christianity believed that it was formed by Jesus, taught for three years by Jesus and commissioned at Pentecost by the Holy Spirit. That is the source of its authority and with that comes heavy responsibility.
The saying is that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops - I believe it to be true. To whom much is given, much is required by God.
Jesus commanded the Church to spread the Gospel to the whole world; He taught and corrected and taught and corrected them and instructed them over and over again. Paul's letter are most instructive in that he uses that model - and emphasizes that these new Christians have to listen to him and his delegates and nothing else.
I have yet to meet one catholic who knows more than attendance at Mass and none know the scriptures.
Do you mean in person? Roughly how many do you know?
They don’t understand what “relationship” with Christ is about...let alone the Holy Spirits workings in their life.
I find that many evangelicals dismiss Catholic teachings and practices in many cases because the terms and definitions differ.
It’s all about ‘practicing catholicism’. So yes, those I’ve met do believe it all comes thru the church.
Scripture indicates that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth - we are not instructed on any other and cannot teach any other.
"Protestant theology" is Christianity. Christianity says that if Christ has covered a man's sins, He has washed that man clean and that man is free from the consequences of sin by the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Is this a difficult concept to understand?
You bet.
Is it Scriptural and true?
Yes.
", and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." -- 2 Corinthians 5:18-19"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." -- Hebrews 8:12
(Here's one of those pesky instances where "world" does not mean "everyone in the whole world" but instead "all believers." Or else "everyone in the whole world" would be forgiven their sins and saved.)
The redeemed still sin because we are still human. The old man is not completely dead. But by God's mercy alone, our sins have been forgiven by Christ on the cross.
And thus, the knowledge of this undeserved gift will cause us to sin less and less. Where once we loved our sin, now, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, we hate our sins and actually want to obey.
Fascinating. So you claim that only failed Catholics really understand true Catholicism.
They don’t seem to have any idea what the average lay Catholic thinks, knows, and believes. We former Catholics keep trying to tell them and they either deny it or change the subject or accuse us of making it up, or we’re *poorly catechized*.
In other words, the only ones who truly know the Church are those who hate it. A fascinating theory.
ANYTHING but admit that we know what we’re talking about from honest to goodness, real life experience and conversations.
Like a bunch of little girls gossiping about somebody else.
WE’RE not the ones who don’t know what’s going on in the Catholic church.
Sure.
I'm not asking what you would not do. I am asking what lengths would you go to in attempting to convince people who were damning themselves to come back to Christianity? And preaching the heresy of dualism - calling it Christianity.
How do YOU know that you’re following God?
Catholic church history is little to write home about and gives precious little evidence of following the Sermon on the Mount as even starters.
Jesus said that if we love Him, we’ll obey His commandments.
Where is the commandment to persecute those who don’t fall in line with the Catholic church?
Now, Mark, you have been corrected on this many times. Here is just ONE verse that Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Correction: we've corrected you guys many times. The early Church Fathers did not write on the Trinity for a couple of centuries. Some of them did not accept the theology and were lost. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Very good. The trouble is that it was not part of Paul's letter and was added many years later as the tripartate baptismal formula was developed. It does not show up for centuries, because it was never part of Paul's teaching or theology. The Church added it during its process of harmonization.
Does that sound like "trinity" to you? You want me to post the other ones or do you still have them from the LAST time we discussed this?
Why don't you post some clear Trinitarian verse this time that is not quite ambiguous and has to be read into? Preferably some that weren't added several hundred years after the writer.
Do you even have any clue about the church’s role in the redemption of individuals and the Holy Spirit’s role?
Just who is supposed to be doing the convincing here?
The church through torture and persecution?
Or the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment?
What methods does God Himself use to bring people to himself?
How can the church justify doing anything else?
You need to go back and reread what I wrote.
It’s pretty simple really. I meant what I wrote.
Now, I realize that that may be a foreign concept for FRoman Catholics, since they are forever having to explain to others how the church didn’t mean what it said, but learn to take things at face value. It will make life much easier for all.
Rarely have I read a stupider statement. Please, mm, tell me what Catholics "are forever having to explain to others how the church [sic} didn't mean what it said."
Because I haven't seen any Catholics doing that. Since you have, please, explain.
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