What Are We To Make of the Anti-Catholics.

Self | Jan 8, 2011 | Natural Law

[Natural Law]

What are we to make of the anti-Catholics?

What are we to make of the anti-Catholics? How can we explain the assault on the Church by those who profess in their words the same mission of the Church, the Salvation of mankind, but through their deeds deny it? Are the fabrications, falsehoods, and lies about the supporting beliefs of the Church, about the lives of its saints and clergy, about the verifiable facts of history justified because of doctrinal disagreements? Does any of this matter in the face of the greater assault on Christ and his flock? It defies rational thinking.

In the face of a Muslim onslaught that is bombing Christmas Masses, executing Christians for a nonexistent heresy and apostasy, and a jihad against Christians of all stripes on a massive scale we get shrill unwarranted criticism of how Catholics peaceably worship the One true God. Is smells and bells really a greater sin than sawing off heads in the name of the prophet?

In the face of a secular socialist assault that is killing babies at a pace that outpaces the crimes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined there are degrading insults and accusations over the difference between worship and veneration. Corrections and explanations are ignored and the apologists are pilloried. For what purpose?

In the face of the threat of Communist China that suppresses worship of all kinds and enforces forced abortions we get feeble ad naseum criticism of the Real Presence in spite of the acceptance by Catholics, both Eastern and Latin Rite, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists. All the while the anti-Catholics continue the charade of Christian unity, minus those damned Catholics of course.

So in the face of the advance of worldwide evil some would have us believe that it is the Catholic Church should be destroyed when the destruction of the Church would serve to provide aid and comfort to that evil. Why? Qui Bono, for whom the benefit?

That the Church is and has always been a target of evil cannot be denied. Neither can it be denied that the Church has never been harmed or compromised by that evil. Satan can only work in this world through the actions of his willing accomplices. Those accomplices have long ago recognized that the greatest harm can be done from within the Church and history has produced numerous examples of sinners wearing the collars of priests. Regardless of the contentions of the anti-Catholics that does not negate the good that the Church has done not diminish the saints who have served God through her. Nor does it excuse those who blame one of the victims of the evil doers, the Church itself.

Perhaps those who irrationally assault the Church daily, those who spend inordinate hours researching the internet looking for dirt, those who accept any lie or indiscretion on nothing more than its bias against the Church are consciously or unconsciously in league with evil. Lex Parsimoniae, the principle which generally recommends accepting the answer that requires the fewest assumptions, when the potential answers are equal in all other respects. Is there a simpler answer?

[Natural Law]

"Anti-Semitism is not simply a theological disagreement."

So it "Jewish" genetic, theological, or cultural? I have a friend whose brother converted to Judaism. Since he was formerly a British Anglican (from Manchester) is he really Jewish?

[bkaycee]

The thing that I find sad is how Protestants fail to see how Catholics believe in all these quotations you mention, which are still in line with Catholic dogma. Maybe it’s because I had a Protestant father and a Catholic mother, but as a Catholic, I don’t see how these quotes you mention exclude the Catholic faith. I guess perhaps Protestants believe you can’t be condemned for your sins as long as you believe Christ is Savior.

Isnt that the point to needing a savior? I thought it was somewhat logical if Christ Paid for all your sin you wont be condemned for all your sins. Does God require double payment for sin?

Catholics also believe any sinner can be saved as long as he or she repents. But the final decision is up to God.

So I can trust in Christ for salvation after repenting and turning from sin, believing He paid for it all, then have to wonder if that was enough? Was He lying in John 3:16?

Is Rom 8:1 not true? "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

[bkaycee]

Bkaycee is one of the sincere ones, like the ones who sincerely believe the errors they've been told about the Church. bkaycee, this is what I meant by a big difference between what people hate about the Church teachings and what The Church actually teaches. I personally believe you are sincerely seeking Christ, but as I pointed out to you on another thread, do read what The Church actually believes instead of what others say the Church believes. A beautiful place to start is here ---> it's like what I told you on another thread that The Church does NOT teach that Salvation is by Faith and Works, that is an incorrect statement. salvation can only come from Jesus Christ

I am fairly certain I understand the Roman gospel of Faith and Grace.

I dont believe it is quite what we mean by Salvation by Grace alone, thru Faith alone, in Christ alone.

You agree that initial salvation is totaly by grace (baptismal regeneration). I agree that salvation is a free gift, however, not by baptism, but by Faith.

Catholics believe baptismal water saves for infants, then one must co-operate to maintain this "state of grace", correct?

How can this onging process of co-operation not be considered a work? Trent seems to indicate that it is a grace but also a merit.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank you for the clarification, and I sincerely apologize for my misunderstanding and my hurtful words.

[Jvette]

I thought I had committed myself to the literal interpretation of Genesis, but if not, I do so now.

I’m sorry, I missed the link to the article, could you remind me of the post with the link or post the link again.

Catholic authors have always a “fringe” element. Even respected Doctors and Fathers if they stray too far have had theologies rejected by the official Church.

I keep coming back to the official Church position because, though some may dispute it, Catholics are free to think what they will in regards to great swaths of the Bible. There is only a few instances of the Church defining as binding specific portions of the Bible. I highly doubt that she will ever declare as incorrect a literal interpretation of Genesis. No, I rather suspect she will remain open to new thoughts on it as long as those thoughts and ideas do not contradict Scripture and Tradition.

I hope this explains why you can find the whole spectrum of belief regarding the creation within the Catholic community.

[fr_freak]

You are the one who declared that God has commanded, through the Bible, that you should not call people fools, yet you made the clear implication that I was a fool, as if God wouldn’t be smart enough to see through your little word play. Insulting me is one thing, but you also insulted God. That was not wise.

[mitch5501]

No worries ZC.

It seems the Word of God is only hard to understand when it doesn't line up with what we already believe.

"...batter at Genesis with the sword of "science" but then sheathe that sword when it comes to the "virgin birth" or "transubstantiation"..."

That's a painfully well made point.

I think that "faith cometh by hearing" applies to everyone.What we hear the most,we trust the most.When I really started to question the things I believed (and why I believed them) I soon ran into..."The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" So we probably all believe some things to some degree that we've never questioned.Indeed some 'heartfelt' beliefs may even negate us ever questioning them,so ingrained they may be.

Difficult for a mind to be transformed when so much of the thinking is dictated by what is in the depths of the heart...which cannot be fully known.It's enough to make one throw their hands in the air and simply cry to God "oh wretched man that I am"

When I did that (not that I've finished doing it mind you)this is what (I believe)God places in my heart..."...every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God"

Grasping that will bring about a massive change of heart and you can know it and trust it because it is something God has placed there according to His own authority.That is what will begin to trully transform the mind in spite of our own efforts to do it.In a rude sense it's like God dropping a nuclear bomb into your heart that will eventually clear out any and all cobwebs.

Sacred cows notwithstanding.

[Mad Dawg]

You realize, do you not, that "fundie" is an ethno-cultural slur?

Actually, no I do not realize that. One of my acquaintances in seminary was as literalist in his approach to Scripture as anyone I have every met. But we all were open to one another.

One night when the Ten COmmandments was on TV a bunch of us watched and at the end when Charlton Heston puts some scrolls in the ark our friend cheered and we all laughed. We called him a "fundie," and he bore the title proudly.

[Religion Moderator]

So it "Jewish" genetic, theological, or cultural?

All three, but the genetic is what earns anti-Semitism the same treatment as racism.

[TheDingoAteMyBaby]

>>The fact that young earth creationism has been all but extirpated from the Catholic Church while abortionism and homosexualism are alive and well illustrates just what the Catholic Church is really opposed to.

I’m recalling how Father Alberto Cutié was publicly defrocked so quickly just for kissing a woman, in contrast to how the church usually deals with homosexual misconduct.

[TheDingoAteMyBaby]

>>The fact that young earth creationism has been all but extirpated from the Catholic Church while abortionism and homosexualism are alive and well illustrates just what the Catholic Church is really opposed to.

I’m recalling how Father Alberto Cutié was publicly defrocked so quickly just for kissing a woman, in contrast to how the church usually deals with homosexual misconduct.

[Mad Dawg]

The Catholic Church despises the simple people of rural America while celebrating pompous intellectuals and third world illiterates.

D00d, this is nonsense. I LIVE in, or at least on the outskirts of rural America. I can't even get broadband here unless I buy an uplink. (Ain't gonna happen -- too much lightning.)

For more than 12 years I farmed sheep and before that I worked as a literal laborer in a literal vineyard. On my hands and knees for hours as day - down one row and up the next and then rest for a cigarette and some water -- lather, rinse, repeat.

I've buried 'em, counseled 'em, lent (given, but we don't call it that) them money, gone up against the utilities for them, organized (when I worked in the PO) to get loads of firewood delivered to folks who were out of money and heated only with wood. I've filled out their money order forms because they were illiterate (but we agreed it was just that they didn't have their glasses with them.)

With my pastor's permission I've gone into their churches and preached funerals, while somebody vamped on the Wurlitzer to back me up.

Don't you tell me I'm bigoted. A t3 o'clock in the morning when some guy needed a lift I drove him 30 miles one way -- and I had to preach that day. Some kids from the family that cuts trees and hauls logs got drunk, wandered into the woods, and wound up at my place in the dark hours of the morning. They'd fallen into a puddle -- a kind of seep I guess. I warmed 'em up, made them coffee, and drove 'em home and turned them over to their parents. And I'm a Catholic.

Father Carl Naro (now gone to his reward) went high up into the holler and met some folks. They chatted on the porch and then one of them went into the house and came out with a Rosary. He said, "My great grandma, God rest her, said maybe one day somebody would come by and tell me how to use this thing. You reckon you know what it is?"

I've given the chalice to migrant workers in migrant worker dormitories with strips of venison hung up to dry and I've paid to have my lambs butchered and dropped them off (never got the coolers back) high up a couple of days before Christmas.

I don't care what they think about Genesis. Do they believe Christ died for their sins? Do they believe He is present in the holy Sacrament? Do they commit their lives to Him and invite Him into their hearts? Then I've been there helping my priest. I don't get to do it much these days, I've gone where my earlier education and my call lead me, and I've sold my sheep and am fixing to sell my tractor.

I've driven them 25 miles (one way) to an AA meeting 'cause they asked to go, and that was AFTER their dog bit me. I am fixing up a meeting between a widow and a lawyer so she can get a will made, and you can guess who's paying for that. She's not Catholic but that's not my decision, it's hers.

I just do not want to hear this. I'm out there with a friend, smelling one ewe's breath to see if she's ketotic and then moving and pulling lambs and dosing his ewes with my medicine and at the end of this I'm bigoted?

I'm sure some Catholics are. And I know plenty that aren't.

I think we're about done here. This isn't about doctrine.

[malkee]

Here’s the main point — Catholics believe Christ died knowing that his death wouldn’t “cover” all believers. Hence the verse about how many will say “Lord, Lord,” and be surprised when they’re denied heaven. Many believe that the cup Christ begged to be delivered from before his death was not the Crucifixion but the fact that not all sinners would be saved by his death. (That last part is not Catholic dogma, just something written by a Catholic) We could argue about what being “in Christ Jesus” means but we would never agree.

[Cronos]

RM If he had said that of Chinese, Cubans, Arabs, African-Americans, Jews, etc. - it would have been pulled as racism or anti-Semitism.

But not if said about a group of believers.

On "open" Religion Forum threads, the following statements (though tacky) are allowed: "Scientologists are crazy" "Mormons are irrational" "Protestants are going to hell" "Catholics despise simple people."

Then could ZC say "the followers of the Jewish religion ...."?

Being Jewish is a mixture of ethnicity and religion MAINLY, yes, hence it is a difference, so these rules makes it impossible to criticize their religion without breaking the rules you just said.

What about the case of Zionist Conspirator or say Miles Davis Junior who are NOT Jewish by "race" but by religion? does the statement "the followers of the Jewish religion ...." hold true for them or are they also covered by the protective anti-racist umbrella?

I know it's a difficult question.

[Cronos]

"publically defrocked"?

On May 5, 2009, Cutié asked church officials for a time of reflection and a leave of absence from his media programs and pastoral work after publication of pictures in which Cutié was shown kissing Ruhama Buni Canellis (born March 7, 1974, Guatemala).[4] Cutié asked the Archdiocese of Miami for some time to think and make a decision on where his life was heading.[5][6] On May 11, 2009, Cutié was interviewed by Maggie Rodriguez of CBS' "The Early Show".[7] He said that he was thinking about leaving the Roman Catholic Church for a woman he loves. He said that he respected the existing rule of mandatory celibacy in the Latin-rite of the Catholic Church and acknowledged that some Latin-rite priests remain dedicated to that calling. There are many priests in Communion with the Vatican who are married, but they are not members of the Latin-rite. He stated he did not want to become the "anti-celibacy priest

Where do you have him being "publically defrocked"? Your post is an example of a knee-jerk anti-Catholic post which repeats a piece of fiction and holds it as the truth that it isn't.

[seemoAR]

Quick, old wise one. What was the title and context of this thread? Do you think any one that does not drink your kool- aid has any reason to be insulted?

I guess it is time for another Inquisition. :0)

[Scythian]

Well, the first mistake is referring to your local brand of Christiantiy as “the Church” ....

[Religion Moderator]

If Christianity didn't disagree with Judaism it would be Jewish. Those theological disputes are expected in "open" Religion Forum debate.

However, because Judaism also involves genetics posters cannot be as rude as they would be in instances where a theological label is a matter of choice. For instance, it is ok in "open" RF debate to say "Scientologists are crazy" but it is anti-Semitic to say "Jews are crazy."

No rationalization (e.g. replace "Scientologist" with "Jew" and it would be anti-Semitic) will convince me to elevate debate protection of any belief system to the level at which we protect groups who had no choice in the matter, i.e. racism, anti-Semitism, etc.

[Hacksaw]

For instance, it is ok in "open" RF debate to say "Scientologists are crazy" but it is anti-Semitic to say "Jews are crazy."

That is the mother of all cop-outs.

[TheDingoAteMyBaby]

Has he not been excommunicated?