Posted on 01/04/2011 4:22:02 AM PST by NYer
If you grew up Catholic, it may be difficult for you to relate to those who profess faith in Jesus but whose stomachs turn at the thought of being Catholic. It might seem odd that the Catholic theology you’ve grown up with is seen by others as an offense to God. I was one of the stomach turners. There are days that I wake up and I still can’t believe I’m Catholic.
I grew up in the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, usually referred to as Foursquare. Foursquare is a Pentecostal denomination that began in the 1920s and is not rooted in the Reformation. In fact, we had already rejected many things the Reformers believed. While we did hold to sola scriptura and sola fide, we did not believe in "once saved always saved," and, as Pentecostals, we believed in miracles and the gifts of the Spirit, which many of the Reformers rejected. You could say we had already "reformed the reform."
Our denomination had a hierarchy of sorts, but each church was free to design its services and internal composition as it saw fit. We were more concerned that people’s lives were being changed by Jesus than with church structure. In some ways this is good—there is little value in a well-oiled machine that doesn’t change lives. We were much more experientially formed than theologically formed. We cared about theology, but the life-changing experience with Jesus was what really mattered.
I must say that, on the whole, if you’re going to pick a Protestant denomination, Foursquare is a good place to be. It is firm in its moral teachings, and with its focus on living for Jesus, a person will inevitably grow closer and more like Jesus the longer he attends.
Who’s Ever Heard of Catholic Radio?
In my early twenties, I discerned a call to enter into full-time ministry and became a Foursquare pastor. Through my years of ministry, my wife and I learned to hear the voice of God and were willing to do anything and go anywhere that God wanted us to go. This led us to plant a new Foursquare congregation in the university district of Seattle, Washington, in 1999. Foursquare doesn’t fund you when you start a new congregation, so whatever you bring or raise from outside support is all you have. When I arrived with my wife and three girls, I had no income, three months worth of money in the bank, and great faith that we would reach the people of Seattle with the gospel of Jesus. We knew God would provide. Our desire was to seek first his kingdom and let him take care of the rest (cf. Matt. 6:33), and he always has.
During this time we ministered to teens, college students, young adults, and young married families. Each week we would head out to the strip by the college and pass out food and clothes to street kids and send groups of two around the block to start up conversations about the gospel. None of us were evangelists by nature; we simply knew that the only way the unsaved would find Jesus would be if we went to them—we couldn’t expect them to just wander into our church.
It was during this time that the door first opened to the Catholic Church. I happened to turn on the radio and catch Catholic Answers Live on Sacred Heart Radio in Seattle. "That’s weird," I thought. "Who’s ever heard of Catholic radio? And what do Catholics need with a radio station anyway?" I wasn’t necessarily anti-Catholic, but I held the usual Reformation-inspired opinions of the Catholic Church and how blessed we were to be free from Romanism. As I listened to the show I was shocked to hear not only a clear presentation of Catholic teaching but also that Catholics still believed in transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and so on.
As the years went on in Seattle, I would occasionally tune back in to Catholic Answers Live and many other shows on Sacred Heart Radio, mainly for the purpose of understanding what Catholics teach so that I could have a reasoned defense to the contrary. The problem was that, time after time, the Catholic explanation of theology was every bit a biblical as my beliefs, albeit in a different way.
Now, because our denomination started in the 1920s, I was oblivious to Church history. For us the Reformation wasn’t the good old days; Acts 2 and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues are the good old days. There was virtually nothing done to fill in the gaps between the present and the first-century Church.
But the Catholics I listened to kept claiming that the earliest Christians were Catholic and that their writings from the first few centuries verify that claim. They would regularly present a point of theology that was rooted in Scripture and then support it with quotes from the "early Church Fathers." The speakers were clear that these writings are not inspired, nor are they on the same level as Scripture, but they do provide us with the historical context to know what the early Christians believed. More importantly, these early Christian writers claimed that these beliefs were handed down by the apostles, and some of them were even taught by the apostles.
At that time, Catholic Answers regularly threw out a challenge not to take their word for any of the positions of the Catholic Church but see for oneself if they are true. I decided to take them up on this challenge, figuring it would be easy. First of all, the Catholic Church sets an impossible standard for itself: infallibility in its dogmatic teachings on matters of faith and morals. All I had to do was prove one doctrine false and the entire system would cease to be without error. Secondly, I was sure that when I found the writings of these "early Church Fathers" and read them in context, they would set the story straight.
But there was a catch. Along with this challenge, there was a caution: Be careful—you just might become Catholic. Yeah, right! Impossible.
My Ship Came In
I started with a slow and measured search into Catholic teaching and Church history. This all changed after a most unexpected event. I was invited to speak at a Foursquare high school camp in the summer of 2003. The man who owned the camp was a gracious servant of Jesus and was gifted with what our denomination calls "prophetic insight," meaning that God gave him insight into things of which he had no natural knowledge. I had never met him before, and as we got to know each other that week, he said he might have some insight from the Lord for me. These encounters usually yielded a general word of encouragement that could probably apply to anybody. Nonetheless, I met with him in his office to pray and see if God had any direction for me.
He began to pray and said he could see a picture in his mind. He saw me and my family standing on the ocean shore and in the water was a huge ship. He said on the side of the ship were the words "Queen Mary." (At this point in my study, I didn’t know that this is a title for Mary; my interest was concentrated on the huge ship.) He looked straight at me and said, "I’m not sure, but maybe you’re supposed to have something to do with the Catholic Church."
I almost fell out of my chair. I told him about my unexpected encounter with Catholicism—the radio shows, the early Church Fathers, the challenge. I left the camp thinking that God might use me in some type of bridge ministry between Protestants and Catholics. Of course, I assumed it would be for bringing Catholics out of Catholicism and into the true unity and "fullness" of Protestantism. With my renewed focus, I returned home and aggressively pursued understanding Catholic theology, Church history, and how I could serve God in this capacity. "If I’m going to reach Catholics," I thought, "I’ll need to know what they believe and how they support those beliefs."
Hitting the Wall
As I examined each point of theology, I found that the Catholic Church’s teachings were the most biblical, the most historical, and the most reasonable. I was also surprised to find that Catholics also believed in miracles and the Pentecostal gifts I had grown up with (but with a more sound foundation). I thought, "Oh man! If this is true, I have to become Catholic."
The day finally came where I hit the wall and realized that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I realized that Jesus truly did establish a Church and didn’t leave the gospel to survive in an "every man for himself" model. In the end, I found that I, like all Bible-based groups, could support my theology from Scripture, but I always had to ignore certain passages to make it fit, and I couldn’t provide any support for its existence in the history of the Church. I found that Catholic theology makes sense of the whole of Scripture and that only Catholic theology is attested to from writings before the death of the apostle John to the present day.
I wasn’t excited about this discovery, for it would cost me most of what I had invested over thirteen years of pastoral ministry. But my desire was to follow Christ, so I resigned my pastorate in August 2004. Once again my wife and I and three girls were without an income, with three months’ worth of money to live on and full of faith that God would provide. And he has.
Now that all of us have come home to the Church, we are constantly amazed at the grace that God provides for living a powerful, Spirit-filled life. When understood properly, Scripture, liturgy, prayer, and the sacraments are far more capable of shaping our Christian walk than any of the relaxed church structures in which I had grown up. I have found that the structure and liturgies that used to turn my stomach have become a greater source of joy than I could have ever imagined.
Awesome!
Ever mass, which are celebrated on every day of the week, contains one old and new testament section along with a gospel reading. Yes, there may be many Catholics who have not fulfilled their obligations to constantly seek the truth, but as you will note on this post an many others there are many Catholics that do read and understand much of the bible.
As for 20% / 80% you might be surprised at how far off that is, but until you research it on your own all you will have is just a guess.
A great place to start is with some Catholic Apologetic info, which will give much of the biblical and Apocalyptic church teachings, which is the rock(Peter) the church is built on.
Mikhail Nikolaievich Tukhachevsky was incarcerated in the high-security fortress of Ingolstadt. There he befriended a number of French fellow prisoners, whome he drove to the depths of melancholy by playing mournful pieces on his violin and shocked with his provocative pronouncements: after a lengthy discussion on literature, he would declare that all books should be burnt so that the soul of man could be truly liberated. One day a French captain found him building a grotesque cardbord monster holding a bomb, which he explained was the God of War and Destruction, Pierun. 'We will enter into the state of Chaos, and will only emerge from it with the total ruin of civilisation,' Tukhachevsky solemnly told the astonished Frenchman as he prostrated himself before it.communists hate Christianity, they hate The Church. Communism fell when Pope John Paul II came and told the Poles in the center of Warsaw that Poland lives for Christ, is defined by Christ. Communism crumbled after that -- first the Solidarity got control in 1985, then the berlin wall collapsed in 1989, then the USSR in 1991. Communists hate the Church for this
His nihilism had an unpleasant tinge to it. 'The Jews brought us Christianity, and that is reason enough to loathe them,' he lectured on another occasion. 'And anyway, they belong to a low race."
**But my desire was to follow Christ, so I resigned my pastorate in August 2004. Once again my wife and I and three girls were without an income, with three months’ worth of money to live on and full of faith that God would provide. And he has.**
Welcome home, Drake and Crystal and family.
No, what is awesome is that even after refuting Ts’ no scripture claim, he still belabours that dead point
You are always a Catholic. You were baptized in a Catholic Church, right? Then you are still marked with that Catholic Baptism.
How was it proved that it is “empty”? I didn’t see any proof of that.
“How could being a certain religion make one’s stomach turn? I just don’t understand the apparent animosity that I see between people of different faiths.”
Its called insecurity in ones own self.
But it is in the Bible
People stood to pray — Catholics stand for the three Presidential prayers (presider prayers) for the Lord’s Prayer and for the Gospel.
People in those times sat to learn — Christ had them all sit down at the Sermon on the Mount — So we sit during the First Readigs, Psalm and Second Reading.
Kneeling is a sign of reverence — so we kneel during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
It is in the Bible!
Guilty. I don’t go out of my way to bash the pepsicola church. I got a lot in that environment. But I am pretty angry at it.
Thanks. That’s just something that I really don’t understand.
It is a scripted ritual.
I’ve witnessed it, most who partake go through the motions.
Like I said, this is my life experience. That said, I’ve seen folks in evangelical/protestant churches go through the motions however it is more common with a scripted service.
Big pictures are in the eye of the beholder.
If God doesn’t do things the way we expect Him to do them, then why does it matter what we believe? Perhaps He made people of different faiths for His own, very good reasons. Perhaps He is capable of having people honor Him, in many different ways?
**People in those times sat to learn — Christ had them all sit down at the Sermon on the Mount — So we sit during the First Readigs, Psalm and Second Reading.
Oops.....I forgot the homily.
Nevertheless, it’s from the Bible — don’t you agree?
Why would a catholic need to bring a bible to church when the liturgy is taken from the bible. Dr. Scott Hahn encountered this on his first visit to a catholic mass. (emphasis mine)
The second thing that happened was when I quietly slipped into the basement chapel down at Marquette, Gesu. They were having a noon Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50, 60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed. Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen it before.The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service. But their prayers were soaked with Biblical language and phrases from Isaiah and Ezekiel. I sat there saying, "Man, stop the show, let me explain your prayers. That's Zechariah; that's Ezekiel. Wow! It's like the Bible coming to life and dancing out on the center stage and saying, "This is where I belong."
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
Catholics should devote more time to reading scripture and priests encourage them to do so. Catholics are surrounded by scripture at Mass and in their daily prayers; for some, that is sufficient.
People stood to pray — Catholics stand for the three Presidential prayers (presider prayers) for the Lord’s Prayer and for the Gospel.Now I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says the people came in each holding leather bound books and shuffled between pages while the rabbi or high priest was preaching. Where is THAT in the Bible?
People in those times sat to learn — Christ had them all sit down at the Sermon on the Mount — So we sit during the First Readigs, Psalm and Second Reading.
Kneeling is a sign of reverence — so we kneel during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
It is in the Bible!
What is your understanding of papal infallibility?
***It’s simply not biblical.***
With respect, I have to tell you that if they’d had copyright laws during the time of Christ, the Catholic church would OWN the bible. After all, it was HIS apostles who wrote the New Testament.
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