Posted on 01/04/2011 4:22:02 AM PST by NYer
If you grew up Catholic, it may be difficult for you to relate to those who profess faith in Jesus but whose stomachs turn at the thought of being Catholic. It might seem odd that the Catholic theology you’ve grown up with is seen by others as an offense to God. I was one of the stomach turners. There are days that I wake up and I still can’t believe I’m Catholic.
I grew up in the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, usually referred to as Foursquare. Foursquare is a Pentecostal denomination that began in the 1920s and is not rooted in the Reformation. In fact, we had already rejected many things the Reformers believed. While we did hold to sola scriptura and sola fide, we did not believe in "once saved always saved," and, as Pentecostals, we believed in miracles and the gifts of the Spirit, which many of the Reformers rejected. You could say we had already "reformed the reform."
Our denomination had a hierarchy of sorts, but each church was free to design its services and internal composition as it saw fit. We were more concerned that people’s lives were being changed by Jesus than with church structure. In some ways this is good—there is little value in a well-oiled machine that doesn’t change lives. We were much more experientially formed than theologically formed. We cared about theology, but the life-changing experience with Jesus was what really mattered.
I must say that, on the whole, if you’re going to pick a Protestant denomination, Foursquare is a good place to be. It is firm in its moral teachings, and with its focus on living for Jesus, a person will inevitably grow closer and more like Jesus the longer he attends.
Who’s Ever Heard of Catholic Radio?
In my early twenties, I discerned a call to enter into full-time ministry and became a Foursquare pastor. Through my years of ministry, my wife and I learned to hear the voice of God and were willing to do anything and go anywhere that God wanted us to go. This led us to plant a new Foursquare congregation in the university district of Seattle, Washington, in 1999. Foursquare doesn’t fund you when you start a new congregation, so whatever you bring or raise from outside support is all you have. When I arrived with my wife and three girls, I had no income, three months worth of money in the bank, and great faith that we would reach the people of Seattle with the gospel of Jesus. We knew God would provide. Our desire was to seek first his kingdom and let him take care of the rest (cf. Matt. 6:33), and he always has.
During this time we ministered to teens, college students, young adults, and young married families. Each week we would head out to the strip by the college and pass out food and clothes to street kids and send groups of two around the block to start up conversations about the gospel. None of us were evangelists by nature; we simply knew that the only way the unsaved would find Jesus would be if we went to them—we couldn’t expect them to just wander into our church.
It was during this time that the door first opened to the Catholic Church. I happened to turn on the radio and catch Catholic Answers Live on Sacred Heart Radio in Seattle. "That’s weird," I thought. "Who’s ever heard of Catholic radio? And what do Catholics need with a radio station anyway?" I wasn’t necessarily anti-Catholic, but I held the usual Reformation-inspired opinions of the Catholic Church and how blessed we were to be free from Romanism. As I listened to the show I was shocked to hear not only a clear presentation of Catholic teaching but also that Catholics still believed in transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and so on.
As the years went on in Seattle, I would occasionally tune back in to Catholic Answers Live and many other shows on Sacred Heart Radio, mainly for the purpose of understanding what Catholics teach so that I could have a reasoned defense to the contrary. The problem was that, time after time, the Catholic explanation of theology was every bit a biblical as my beliefs, albeit in a different way.
Now, because our denomination started in the 1920s, I was oblivious to Church history. For us the Reformation wasn’t the good old days; Acts 2 and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues are the good old days. There was virtually nothing done to fill in the gaps between the present and the first-century Church.
But the Catholics I listened to kept claiming that the earliest Christians were Catholic and that their writings from the first few centuries verify that claim. They would regularly present a point of theology that was rooted in Scripture and then support it with quotes from the "early Church Fathers." The speakers were clear that these writings are not inspired, nor are they on the same level as Scripture, but they do provide us with the historical context to know what the early Christians believed. More importantly, these early Christian writers claimed that these beliefs were handed down by the apostles, and some of them were even taught by the apostles.
At that time, Catholic Answers regularly threw out a challenge not to take their word for any of the positions of the Catholic Church but see for oneself if they are true. I decided to take them up on this challenge, figuring it would be easy. First of all, the Catholic Church sets an impossible standard for itself: infallibility in its dogmatic teachings on matters of faith and morals. All I had to do was prove one doctrine false and the entire system would cease to be without error. Secondly, I was sure that when I found the writings of these "early Church Fathers" and read them in context, they would set the story straight.
But there was a catch. Along with this challenge, there was a caution: Be careful—you just might become Catholic. Yeah, right! Impossible.
My Ship Came In
I started with a slow and measured search into Catholic teaching and Church history. This all changed after a most unexpected event. I was invited to speak at a Foursquare high school camp in the summer of 2003. The man who owned the camp was a gracious servant of Jesus and was gifted with what our denomination calls "prophetic insight," meaning that God gave him insight into things of which he had no natural knowledge. I had never met him before, and as we got to know each other that week, he said he might have some insight from the Lord for me. These encounters usually yielded a general word of encouragement that could probably apply to anybody. Nonetheless, I met with him in his office to pray and see if God had any direction for me.
He began to pray and said he could see a picture in his mind. He saw me and my family standing on the ocean shore and in the water was a huge ship. He said on the side of the ship were the words "Queen Mary." (At this point in my study, I didn’t know that this is a title for Mary; my interest was concentrated on the huge ship.) He looked straight at me and said, "I’m not sure, but maybe you’re supposed to have something to do with the Catholic Church."
I almost fell out of my chair. I told him about my unexpected encounter with Catholicism—the radio shows, the early Church Fathers, the challenge. I left the camp thinking that God might use me in some type of bridge ministry between Protestants and Catholics. Of course, I assumed it would be for bringing Catholics out of Catholicism and into the true unity and "fullness" of Protestantism. With my renewed focus, I returned home and aggressively pursued understanding Catholic theology, Church history, and how I could serve God in this capacity. "If I’m going to reach Catholics," I thought, "I’ll need to know what they believe and how they support those beliefs."
Hitting the Wall
As I examined each point of theology, I found that the Catholic Church’s teachings were the most biblical, the most historical, and the most reasonable. I was also surprised to find that Catholics also believed in miracles and the Pentecostal gifts I had grown up with (but with a more sound foundation). I thought, "Oh man! If this is true, I have to become Catholic."
The day finally came where I hit the wall and realized that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I realized that Jesus truly did establish a Church and didn’t leave the gospel to survive in an "every man for himself" model. In the end, I found that I, like all Bible-based groups, could support my theology from Scripture, but I always had to ignore certain passages to make it fit, and I couldn’t provide any support for its existence in the history of the Church. I found that Catholic theology makes sense of the whole of Scripture and that only Catholic theology is attested to from writings before the death of the apostle John to the present day.
I wasn’t excited about this discovery, for it would cost me most of what I had invested over thirteen years of pastoral ministry. But my desire was to follow Christ, so I resigned my pastorate in August 2004. Once again my wife and I and three girls were without an income, with three months’ worth of money to live on and full of faith that God would provide. And he has.
Now that all of us have come home to the Church, we are constantly amazed at the grace that God provides for living a powerful, Spirit-filled life. When understood properly, Scripture, liturgy, prayer, and the sacraments are far more capable of shaping our Christian walk than any of the relaxed church structures in which I had grown up. I have found that the structure and liturgies that used to turn my stomach have become a greater source of joy than I could have ever imagined.
Well at least, you agreed I had a point. ;)
Copied and saved!
Even MORE scripture!
It is not just an empty ritual.
You have proven it is a well-scripted empty ritual.
Including the expected responses from the attendees.
Isn't Scripture just supposed to be bound in a book that you have to carry to an alleluiah service? I think that requirement must be in Scripture somewhere.
I understand the point of your post and that a "big picture explanation" in life "according to the whole" is certainly the way to go.
However, to believe that Rome embraces "the big picture" is somewhat misleading. It's like saying Stalin "saw the big picture."
He did. But of what?
After all this time on FR I've come to the conclusion that while dispensationalism is a mischaracterization of Christian expectations and actually works against the Holy Spirit's positive influence in men's lives and the world around us, it pales in comparison to the 24% of the American population who believe in "another Christ" and "a co-redeemer" and a works-based salvation and the alchemy of the mass and the necessity of a recurring sacrifice and confessions made to a hierarchical priesthood of elevated human beings and mystical relics and empty rituals and an infallible bunch of old guys dressed in long robes and funny hats who presume to be the sole conduit for the Holy Spirit while actually possessing a seat at the UN (thank you, Ronald Reagan,) all the while dismissing, denying and deflecting the holy Scriptures and their clear teaching of salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory alone, made known to us by His holy, perfect word, our only rule of faith and practice.
In fact, as is so often the case, the roots of dispensationalism flow from the counter Reformation. Up until then, Luther, Calvin and all the reformers taught that the antiChrist was the papacy as depicted in Revelation. Then along comes a Jesuit priest, Francisco Rivera, who writes that while the first three books of Revelation had already occurred, the rest of Revelations had yet to happen, thereby giving a convenient pass to the papacy as the beast of prophecy.
For anyone interested, here's an interesting site...
And in conclusion...from Topcat54's excellent homepage...
"Rome has not essentially changed. Rome declared that what it said at the time of the Reformation was infallible and could not change. Declared it to be irreformible truth. Rome has not changed and precious truths of God's word are still worth upholding even at the cost of unity even at the cost of being considered "troublemakers" in the religious world. We need to guard the antithesis against the destructive error of Rome." -- Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen "The Reformation is dying daily in our day when the Ecumenical Movement, and other forces like unto it, wish to soften the antithesis with Rome, today. I want to assure you that it's not my pugnacious debating nature that makes me say we must exalt that antithesis and guard it. It's my love for the Lord Jesus Christ and the purity of His word.
Reformed theology also addresses all of life, and challenges us to bring all we have to the game. Including our minds. My life, family, and vocation were transformed when a guy I'd evangelized ten years earlier turned me on to "Calvinism on steroids." There is a God, and I'm not Him.
Amen, brother!
All for the glory of Christ alone. I once was blind, but now I see, all by grace and none of me.
More often I hear non-Catholics who want to be known by others by their associations call themselves Christian, which seems to have replaced the term Protestant in this era of relativism.
It is still grievous to the heart to see people isolate themselves from the One True Hope, and continually live ‘in the moment’ without giving any thought to eternity. Regardless of the name of their church.
Love them, because they show how God is always at work in our lives, and has this funny way of taking the things we're most sure about and standing them on their heads.
And hate them, because He's stood me on my head more than a few times, and it's rarely fun at the time.
(As it happens, my Sunday School lesson next week is on how God doesn't do things the way we expect Him to do them...)
I'm glad we both agree that "once saved, always saved" is a false doctrine.
Be careful, son. Keep on making comments like that and folks might think you're my paid shill ...
Show me in Scripture where it says worshipping God for even just a moment is a bad thing.
Or are you referring to confessing your sins to a man?
James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective". Do you confess your sins to another person as instructed by Scripture?
Or maybe praying to some other intercessory other than Jesus like Mary, the saints, etc.?
1 Tim 2:1 "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people?" Pray tell, there is nothing wrong with asking others who are in Christ to pray for you, is there?
Relationship with God? More like relationship with the church.
Yes a relationship with God and His Church.
My main concern and prayer is for the Church to be ONE. The Church has been the one thing that has held back the hand of evil in our world in the manifestation of Communism. Our culture and Faith has been under attack for generations by the disciples of Marx.
The Italian marxist, Antonio Gramsci, understood that it was the Catholic Church (also all of Christianity, but he specified the Catholic Church) that was standing in the way of marxism taking hold in the hearts of men. He realized that to win the hearts of men, a cultural war had to be declared on Christianity. Communists shifted their focus on culture from economics. Political Correctness is the result of this.
To win back our culture and our nation the Church must be united so that even the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
My main concern and prayer is for the Church to be ONE. The Church has been the one thing that has held back the hand of evil in our world in the manifestation of Communism. Our culture and Faith has been under attack for generations by the disciples of Marx.
The Italian marxist, Antonio Gramsci, understood that it was the Catholic Church (also all of Christianity, but he specified the Catholic Church) that was standing in the way of marxism taking hold in the hearts of men. He realized that to win the hearts of men, a cultural war had to be declared on Christianity. Communists shifted their focus on culture from economics. Political Correctness is the result of this.
To win back our culture and our nation the Church must be united so that even the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
yes, I agree you had a point :) God Bless you and Praise Jesus
Thanks to OpusatFr for this #57 — I’m going to post it on my homepage so the next time anyone asks us for the scriptural basis for the mass, it’s there for ready reference!
And it's simply not true either!
This is truly a remarkable and excellent example of how any old ignorant falsehood is marshalled against us and glommed onto to those who are not so much looking for the truth as they are looking for a reason to "refudiate" the Catholic Church.
FYI: At the prayer of consecration in my parish ONLY on special days when we're putting on the dog, a kind of handbell thing is rung at the epiclesis and several times during the "Words of Institution" which we think are when God graciously fulfills his promise with respect to the transubstantiation of the element in question.
In the Latin Rite churches, the prayer of consecration has a prescribed form. At the beginning everyone able to stand is standing. There's a dialogue between the celebrant and the congregation. That leads into the Sanctus, which is said or sung while all stand.
THEN everyone kneels except the celebrant. He praises God and asks the Holy Spirit to bless the 'gifts'. That's the "epiclesis." One ringing.
Then there is the narrative of the Institution almost word-for-word as Paul gives it. The bells are rung at various points in that part.
The prayer continues. Then we all stand for the Lord's prayer.
Note that we were all on our knees before any bell-ringing happened and remained on our knees after the bell ringing stopped, and no one but sick people was sitting at all.
I recommend taking what your cousin says as less than 100% reliable.
And if anyone thinks himself to be religious, not restraining his tongue but deceiving his own heart, that man's religion is vain. Religion pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to give aid to orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself unspotted from this world.
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