Preach it, brother!
Posted on 01/04/2011 4:22:02 AM PST by NYer
If you grew up Catholic, it may be difficult for you to relate to those who profess faith in Jesus but whose stomachs turn at the thought of being Catholic. It might seem odd that the Catholic theology you’ve grown up with is seen by others as an offense to God. I was one of the stomach turners. There are days that I wake up and I still can’t believe I’m Catholic.
I grew up in the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, usually referred to as Foursquare. Foursquare is a Pentecostal denomination that began in the 1920s and is not rooted in the Reformation. In fact, we had already rejected many things the Reformers believed. While we did hold to sola scriptura and sola fide, we did not believe in "once saved always saved," and, as Pentecostals, we believed in miracles and the gifts of the Spirit, which many of the Reformers rejected. You could say we had already "reformed the reform."
Our denomination had a hierarchy of sorts, but each church was free to design its services and internal composition as it saw fit. We were more concerned that people’s lives were being changed by Jesus than with church structure. In some ways this is good—there is little value in a well-oiled machine that doesn’t change lives. We were much more experientially formed than theologically formed. We cared about theology, but the life-changing experience with Jesus was what really mattered.
I must say that, on the whole, if you’re going to pick a Protestant denomination, Foursquare is a good place to be. It is firm in its moral teachings, and with its focus on living for Jesus, a person will inevitably grow closer and more like Jesus the longer he attends.
Who’s Ever Heard of Catholic Radio?
In my early twenties, I discerned a call to enter into full-time ministry and became a Foursquare pastor. Through my years of ministry, my wife and I learned to hear the voice of God and were willing to do anything and go anywhere that God wanted us to go. This led us to plant a new Foursquare congregation in the university district of Seattle, Washington, in 1999. Foursquare doesn’t fund you when you start a new congregation, so whatever you bring or raise from outside support is all you have. When I arrived with my wife and three girls, I had no income, three months worth of money in the bank, and great faith that we would reach the people of Seattle with the gospel of Jesus. We knew God would provide. Our desire was to seek first his kingdom and let him take care of the rest (cf. Matt. 6:33), and he always has.
During this time we ministered to teens, college students, young adults, and young married families. Each week we would head out to the strip by the college and pass out food and clothes to street kids and send groups of two around the block to start up conversations about the gospel. None of us were evangelists by nature; we simply knew that the only way the unsaved would find Jesus would be if we went to them—we couldn’t expect them to just wander into our church.
It was during this time that the door first opened to the Catholic Church. I happened to turn on the radio and catch Catholic Answers Live on Sacred Heart Radio in Seattle. "That’s weird," I thought. "Who’s ever heard of Catholic radio? And what do Catholics need with a radio station anyway?" I wasn’t necessarily anti-Catholic, but I held the usual Reformation-inspired opinions of the Catholic Church and how blessed we were to be free from Romanism. As I listened to the show I was shocked to hear not only a clear presentation of Catholic teaching but also that Catholics still believed in transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and so on.
As the years went on in Seattle, I would occasionally tune back in to Catholic Answers Live and many other shows on Sacred Heart Radio, mainly for the purpose of understanding what Catholics teach so that I could have a reasoned defense to the contrary. The problem was that, time after time, the Catholic explanation of theology was every bit a biblical as my beliefs, albeit in a different way.
Now, because our denomination started in the 1920s, I was oblivious to Church history. For us the Reformation wasn’t the good old days; Acts 2 and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues are the good old days. There was virtually nothing done to fill in the gaps between the present and the first-century Church.
But the Catholics I listened to kept claiming that the earliest Christians were Catholic and that their writings from the first few centuries verify that claim. They would regularly present a point of theology that was rooted in Scripture and then support it with quotes from the "early Church Fathers." The speakers were clear that these writings are not inspired, nor are they on the same level as Scripture, but they do provide us with the historical context to know what the early Christians believed. More importantly, these early Christian writers claimed that these beliefs were handed down by the apostles, and some of them were even taught by the apostles.
At that time, Catholic Answers regularly threw out a challenge not to take their word for any of the positions of the Catholic Church but see for oneself if they are true. I decided to take them up on this challenge, figuring it would be easy. First of all, the Catholic Church sets an impossible standard for itself: infallibility in its dogmatic teachings on matters of faith and morals. All I had to do was prove one doctrine false and the entire system would cease to be without error. Secondly, I was sure that when I found the writings of these "early Church Fathers" and read them in context, they would set the story straight.
But there was a catch. Along with this challenge, there was a caution: Be careful—you just might become Catholic. Yeah, right! Impossible.
My Ship Came In
I started with a slow and measured search into Catholic teaching and Church history. This all changed after a most unexpected event. I was invited to speak at a Foursquare high school camp in the summer of 2003. The man who owned the camp was a gracious servant of Jesus and was gifted with what our denomination calls "prophetic insight," meaning that God gave him insight into things of which he had no natural knowledge. I had never met him before, and as we got to know each other that week, he said he might have some insight from the Lord for me. These encounters usually yielded a general word of encouragement that could probably apply to anybody. Nonetheless, I met with him in his office to pray and see if God had any direction for me.
He began to pray and said he could see a picture in his mind. He saw me and my family standing on the ocean shore and in the water was a huge ship. He said on the side of the ship were the words "Queen Mary." (At this point in my study, I didn’t know that this is a title for Mary; my interest was concentrated on the huge ship.) He looked straight at me and said, "I’m not sure, but maybe you’re supposed to have something to do with the Catholic Church."
I almost fell out of my chair. I told him about my unexpected encounter with Catholicism—the radio shows, the early Church Fathers, the challenge. I left the camp thinking that God might use me in some type of bridge ministry between Protestants and Catholics. Of course, I assumed it would be for bringing Catholics out of Catholicism and into the true unity and "fullness" of Protestantism. With my renewed focus, I returned home and aggressively pursued understanding Catholic theology, Church history, and how I could serve God in this capacity. "If I’m going to reach Catholics," I thought, "I’ll need to know what they believe and how they support those beliefs."
Hitting the Wall
As I examined each point of theology, I found that the Catholic Church’s teachings were the most biblical, the most historical, and the most reasonable. I was also surprised to find that Catholics also believed in miracles and the Pentecostal gifts I had grown up with (but with a more sound foundation). I thought, "Oh man! If this is true, I have to become Catholic."
The day finally came where I hit the wall and realized that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I realized that Jesus truly did establish a Church and didn’t leave the gospel to survive in an "every man for himself" model. In the end, I found that I, like all Bible-based groups, could support my theology from Scripture, but I always had to ignore certain passages to make it fit, and I couldn’t provide any support for its existence in the history of the Church. I found that Catholic theology makes sense of the whole of Scripture and that only Catholic theology is attested to from writings before the death of the apostle John to the present day.
I wasn’t excited about this discovery, for it would cost me most of what I had invested over thirteen years of pastoral ministry. But my desire was to follow Christ, so I resigned my pastorate in August 2004. Once again my wife and I and three girls were without an income, with three months’ worth of money to live on and full of faith that God would provide. And he has.
Now that all of us have come home to the Church, we are constantly amazed at the grace that God provides for living a powerful, Spirit-filled life. When understood properly, Scripture, liturgy, prayer, and the sacraments are far more capable of shaping our Christian walk than any of the relaxed church structures in which I had grown up. I have found that the structure and liturgies that used to turn my stomach have become a greater source of joy than I could have ever imagined.
Many thanks ..
I tried to answer your question as honestly as I could. Fortunately, I was brought up in an extremely “ecumenical” environment in a part of the country that was (at the time) about 80% working class Roman Catholic. My friends never really tried to “convert” me, but I sure got taken along to my share of Saturday evening Masses when it was either send him home or cram the Protestant kid with the Catholic sounding name in the station wagon with the rest of the brood. I was cautioned that I’d be sent directly to Hell if I mistakenly went up with everybody else to take Holy Communion (hey, a line’s forming .. must be something good at the end) and that sort of threw a damper on the inclusive mood, but I got over it.
NYer, thank you very much for this excellent post. It is simple, it is unambiguous and yet brief, so as not to discourage one from reading it.
And it was much appreciated. Thank you!
Fortunately, I was brought up in an extremely “ecumenical” environment in a part of the country that was (at the time) about 80% working class Roman Catholic.
Me too :-) Interestingly enough, the subject of this post, Drake McCalister, grew up in a part of the country where he never met a catholic. Ironically, he studied his way into the Catholic Church and when he and his wife entered, they expected to find small congregations. They were very surprised at the number of catholics.
I was cautioned that I’d be sent directly to Hell if I mistakenly went up with everybody else to take Holy Communion (hey, a line’s forming .. must be something good at the end) and that sort of threw a damper on the inclusive mood, but I got over it.
They were mistaken in suggesting such a fate. However, there are rules associated to receiving communion and rules regarding the other sacraments as well. These need to be understood before partaking of the sacrament. You must believe ALL the teachings of the Catholic church in order be a full member and receive communion and all of the sacraments. Catholics understand that communion is NOT JUST a reenactment of the last supper. It is NOT JUST a symbol of Christ's body and blood. Jesus told us at the Last Supper to "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME" and he told his apostles that "This IS my body", "This IS my blood which will be offered up for you for the forgiveness of sins...." When we receive communion, we are receiving Christ's body and blood. Only full believer's of the faith, received into the Church formally through the formal Rites, and recieve all of the sacraments. It is Church Law and it is so that unbelievers don't accidentily (without their knowledge) mishandle the sacred body and blood of Jesus and offend God.
That doesn't show it's empty.
Seriously, it's an interesting divergence of views. I remember a lengthy conversation more than 35 years ago with a good friend (then Congregationalist, now Catholic) about a remark about 'empty ritual' we'd heard in a lecture. He has grown up in a pretty ritual-free environment while I was an altar boy from the age of seven in a pretty "high" Episcopal congregation.
I won't try to speak for him, but my experience as an altar boy was that it would have been worse than ridiculous merely to "go through the motions."
And ditto, more or less, when I was an Episcopal priest. Sundays were exhausting and a blessing because the "rites (=words to say) and ceremonies (gestures, postures to adopt, actions to do) demanded an attentiveness, not simply to them but to my prayers, to God.
So my experience of "empty ritual" was that the words informed me and the gestures, etc. did also in a less than verbal way.
And of course, at least theoretically it would be possible to 'produce' a wonderful ritual and to view the whole thing as a kind of scripted and blocked play -- all 'acted', nothing real or sincere.
But I think about hugging or even shaking hands: Shaking hands is not necessarily an intuitive or spontaneous gesture. It's something we learned. And yet it can be a wonderfully pliable gesture -- it can be cold and formal or warm and loving -- an expression of delighted love.
Surely there are people who shake hand distractedly or falsely. And just as surely there are people at Mass, rising and falling with the tide, as they say, who have no clue. But I think that is their problem and not that of the ritual itself. For some of us, the ritual, even without addressing the matter of objective sacramental grace, is the setting for intense prayer and an intense encounter. Those might be the Catholics with whom you have not engaged in conversation. At some point in the Mass, though, I can only pray for those who are going through the motions. I don't know why their missing it, I hope they do not always miss it, but they are missing a wonderful encounter with a wonderful Lord and God.
God Bless and thank you, Cronos for posting this. I am a cradle and confirmed Episcopalian and still a member of the Episcopal Church. Yet I attend Catholic Mass pretty often.
Scripture is written in the Episcopal Mass which is nearly identical to the Catholic Mass, in my opinion anyway.
And hopefully Scripture is faithfully written in our hearts.
But, well, one time when the "mystery" was the second one of the "sorrowful mysteries", namely the Scouring of our Lord at the Pillar, I was so, what shall I say, "affected," that it was all I could do to avoid pulling up my shirt to look for welts and lesions.
What you see is a tubby sexagenarian with his butt on the pew and his knees on the kneeling cushion. What you hear is, okay, "droning."
But what is invisible is that that old guy is throwing himself into the scourging, apologizing to the Lord because his sins made the scourging necessary for the salvation of the world, pleading that if somehow it were good or useful he might take some of the blows of the whips.
Things are not what they appear. The kiss of a sincere and loving husband is not all that different from that of a lying seducer -- in appearance.
And let's not forget grace in this! A Protestant should never forget that! Here are sinners, distracted, insincere, worldly. But they have at least hauled their sorry butts into what they take to be the presence of the Lord. They have made that minimal effort.
And do we not agree that God is on the sinner who makes the least sign of repentance like white on rice, like the father in the parable who runs to the son still afar off?
The son came home for food. But the Father met him with love.
As you might guess from the most famous members, that is a relatively 'low' parish, but the family drifted 'high' in the interim.
We found a very reverent Catholic parish with orthodox theology and great attention to proper celebration -- and really it was not much of a wrench to wade 'cross the Tiber. My daughter was only 13 at the time, and she remarked that she couldn't really see much difference -- we still said the Rosary and still had the crucifix on the wall in the stairwell . . . . she didn't like the music much, but that got better with a new music director. :-D
My occasional salvos (in sorrow and anger) against the Episcopal Church hierarchy in no way reflect on those honest faithful who remain there. If it's for the time being, and I can help, call me.
Preach it, brother!
The ancestral roots I have been able to trace thus far are more plain. St. Mary's, Swansea, Wales was the church my Great Grandparents were married in in the mid 1800s. It was bombed in the Blitz February 1941 and not rebuilt until the 1950s. 1770 is the earliest I have been able to trace back on another of my Anglo ancestral branches. It was the year my GGGG Grandparents married in the Church of England in Lincolnshire England.
I don't know how many generations back my family were members of the Church of England but it might be my catechism which influences me still. I don't even know if the Episcopal Church offers Catechism classes anymore.
I was an all A honors student who studied little and played hard so I figured Catechism classes would be a breeze. They were not easy and required much reading and turning in weekly written assignments. Our final written test was difficult with no easy guesses and we also had long essay questions.
The visiting Bishop for my Catechism gave a very moving sermon. I felt the weight and believed my responsibility for receiving the Holy Spirit and entering the Church as an adult member despite my young age.
Yes, the music is something I dearly miss when I attend Catholic Mass.
Thank you for your very kind offer. I would love to chat with you more about this.
What AnAmericanMother said and Amen! Amen!!
The old Catechism was a bit XXXIXish for a high churcher, but it contains some very good bits:
"My duty towards my Neighbour is to love him as myself, and to do to all men as I would they should do unto me: To love, honour, and succour my father and mother: To honour and obey the Queen, and all that are put in authority under her: To submit myself to all my governors, teachers, spiritual pastors and masters: To order myself lowly and reverently to all my betters: To hurt nobody by word nor deed: To be true and just in all my dealing: To bear no malice nor hatred in my heart: To keep my hands from picking and stealing, and my tongue from evil-speaking, lying, and slandering: To keep my body in temperance, soberness, and chastity: Not to covet nor desire other men’s goods; but to learn and labour truly to get mine own living, and to do my duty in that state of life, unto which it shall please God to call me."
St Mary's Swansea is a beautiful church. The old English churches are magnificent. You have to kind of look around to find anything this beautiful in the U.S.
Sorry for this thread hijack. I am so excited! Thank you very much for bringing up Anglo heritage. I searched St. Mary’s Swansea and just minutes ago found some photos, one circa 1870 which I believe would be close to the time my Great Grandparents were to be married in St. Mary’s Church!
The workers are tearing down a building to add on to the church which is barely seen on the far right.
What’s fascinating is that a few of the men doing some of the heavy lifting are dressed in vests, suit coats and proper hats. That matches what my dear 96 year old Aunt said about how the men in our Welsh family dressed every day.
Courtesy ping to fellow Cymry Myrddin,
*****
Cross Street - demolition in progress
This is Cross Street c.1870, now Princess Way looking towards the Marina. St Mary’s Church can be seen on the right. The row of buildings on the right of Cross Street are being demolished, the land will be incorporated into the church grounds. The group of people on the right are standing on the remains of the ‘Smithy’
http://www.swanseaheritage.net/swanseathroughtheyears/gat_full.asp?A_ID=245
*****
c. St. Mary’s Church from Ben’s
“Though totally rebuilt in 1895 - 97, and much repaired before that, the parish church of Swansea had stood on this site since the Middle Ages.” (”All that was left was the coalshed...”, p.52, published by Swansea Museums Service, 1997.)
http://www.swanseaheritage.net/swanseathroughtheyears/gat_full.asp?A_ID=56
The white trousers on the supervisor standing on the smithy bricks might put the date a little earlier, but maybe he was just a bit behind the times or fashions took longer to get to Wales. (Don't feel bad - another branch of my family was sauntering around the Highlands with no pants to their names at all, at all.)
St. Giles Cripplegate was flattened in the Blitz, but rebuilt exactly as it was beforehand from the actual plans -- which somebody somehow had saved. The building is one of the last medieval churches in London, dating from the late 14th century, with the brick addition to the tower added after the Great Fire, which the church survived intact (but just barely - the fire was almost right up against the church wall when it finally burned out).
They have some really neat memorials and portrait busts which survived the Blitz.
I remember this — I lived in the south of England for years in the early 2000s. Beautiful churches all.
Most of them used to be ours .
< /snark >
It's a shame that so many have been decommissioned, turned into nightclubs or restaurants, or actually torn down. Lots of history lost that way (I still can't believe that they tore down the church where Grimaldi, the very first clown, was buried. St. James Petonville, I think without looking).
I'm sorry to be such a bore about my Welsh ancestry, lol. I am giggling like a kid right now.
I don't know what XXXIX (39ish) refers to but the language in my Catechism didn't mention the Queen. I probably would have laughed instead of gulping and tearing up when the Bishop blessed me.
I had been baptized in a high church, attended the first 10 or so years in a moderate-high church, then we moved again and attended a lower very politically active Church. The News at 6 Walter Cronkhite intoned sermons were dreadful and I resented the harping on current politics but the music kept me focused on the Word. That's also where I took Catechism classes which seemed to counter all the political hardball sermons.
Then again another move and my Mother insisted on returning to a high church, much smaller congregation with an old guy Priest who sometime lapsed into Latin, truly a church of “bells and smells.” If I hadn't taken Latin in school I would have been completely lost.
I don't recall when the Catholic Mass changed from Latin to English nor when when Catholic hierarchy decreed that no meat Fridays were no longer required but my Mother would always say “Well we're not Catholic so we shall continue eating fish on Fridays.” Ack! LOL!
I remember fainting one time in the middle of Mass. We always fasted before Mass and combined with the heavy incense and every 30 second kneeling, standing, kneeling and genuflecting which I irreverently labeled “bobbing and dipping” I suddenly saw bright shiny lights followed by darkness and the hard wooden bench.
The Bible Belt Midwest was not the friendliest place for Episcopalian kids. I loved the formal services and music yet most of my school friends had no clue what an “Episko-peliCan” was.
LOL I did not notice the man in the white pants. How did you deduce he was a Supervisor? That's amazing! Thank you!
The history of St. Giles Cripplegate and what those outer walls witnessed through the ages is breathtaking to consider. I can just imagine a devoted Church Sexton carefully filing away the Church building plans.
It was a miracle that St Giles Cripplegate survived the Great Fire. I just read that 87 parish churches burned to the ground in the firestorm.
Thanks very much for the ping to this thread because I’ve enjoyed the *hijacking* portions immensely.
Please forgive me bronx2, but that’s quite the screed against the Orthodox. Concidering that I am a convert to Holy Orthodoxy from a Pentecostal background perhaps I may have some knowledge of the topic of your rant. I came out of the Assemblies of God denomination, and they still welcomed me with open arms. They have not yet asked me to learn Greek, Russian, Arabic...or any other foriegn language. The various crimes against the Orthodox you referred to were not table talk I heard in the church...ever. I read about them in my own study of Christian history. Siege mentality...no, I’m afraid not. I’m sorry, but you are just plain wrong on every point. Are some Orthodox loyal to their national or racial heritages? You bet, and I am equally loyal to my American heritage. I have spent half my life in a uniform as proof. I do not ask them to give up theirs and they don’t ask me to give up mine. Thank you.
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