Posted on 01/04/2011 4:22:02 AM PST by NYer
If you grew up Catholic, it may be difficult for you to relate to those who profess faith in Jesus but whose stomachs turn at the thought of being Catholic. It might seem odd that the Catholic theology you’ve grown up with is seen by others as an offense to God. I was one of the stomach turners. There are days that I wake up and I still can’t believe I’m Catholic.
I grew up in the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, usually referred to as Foursquare. Foursquare is a Pentecostal denomination that began in the 1920s and is not rooted in the Reformation. In fact, we had already rejected many things the Reformers believed. While we did hold to sola scriptura and sola fide, we did not believe in "once saved always saved," and, as Pentecostals, we believed in miracles and the gifts of the Spirit, which many of the Reformers rejected. You could say we had already "reformed the reform."
Our denomination had a hierarchy of sorts, but each church was free to design its services and internal composition as it saw fit. We were more concerned that people’s lives were being changed by Jesus than with church structure. In some ways this is good—there is little value in a well-oiled machine that doesn’t change lives. We were much more experientially formed than theologically formed. We cared about theology, but the life-changing experience with Jesus was what really mattered.
I must say that, on the whole, if you’re going to pick a Protestant denomination, Foursquare is a good place to be. It is firm in its moral teachings, and with its focus on living for Jesus, a person will inevitably grow closer and more like Jesus the longer he attends.
Who’s Ever Heard of Catholic Radio?
In my early twenties, I discerned a call to enter into full-time ministry and became a Foursquare pastor. Through my years of ministry, my wife and I learned to hear the voice of God and were willing to do anything and go anywhere that God wanted us to go. This led us to plant a new Foursquare congregation in the university district of Seattle, Washington, in 1999. Foursquare doesn’t fund you when you start a new congregation, so whatever you bring or raise from outside support is all you have. When I arrived with my wife and three girls, I had no income, three months worth of money in the bank, and great faith that we would reach the people of Seattle with the gospel of Jesus. We knew God would provide. Our desire was to seek first his kingdom and let him take care of the rest (cf. Matt. 6:33), and he always has.
During this time we ministered to teens, college students, young adults, and young married families. Each week we would head out to the strip by the college and pass out food and clothes to street kids and send groups of two around the block to start up conversations about the gospel. None of us were evangelists by nature; we simply knew that the only way the unsaved would find Jesus would be if we went to them—we couldn’t expect them to just wander into our church.
It was during this time that the door first opened to the Catholic Church. I happened to turn on the radio and catch Catholic Answers Live on Sacred Heart Radio in Seattle. "That’s weird," I thought. "Who’s ever heard of Catholic radio? And what do Catholics need with a radio station anyway?" I wasn’t necessarily anti-Catholic, but I held the usual Reformation-inspired opinions of the Catholic Church and how blessed we were to be free from Romanism. As I listened to the show I was shocked to hear not only a clear presentation of Catholic teaching but also that Catholics still believed in transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and so on.
As the years went on in Seattle, I would occasionally tune back in to Catholic Answers Live and many other shows on Sacred Heart Radio, mainly for the purpose of understanding what Catholics teach so that I could have a reasoned defense to the contrary. The problem was that, time after time, the Catholic explanation of theology was every bit a biblical as my beliefs, albeit in a different way.
Now, because our denomination started in the 1920s, I was oblivious to Church history. For us the Reformation wasn’t the good old days; Acts 2 and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues are the good old days. There was virtually nothing done to fill in the gaps between the present and the first-century Church.
But the Catholics I listened to kept claiming that the earliest Christians were Catholic and that their writings from the first few centuries verify that claim. They would regularly present a point of theology that was rooted in Scripture and then support it with quotes from the "early Church Fathers." The speakers were clear that these writings are not inspired, nor are they on the same level as Scripture, but they do provide us with the historical context to know what the early Christians believed. More importantly, these early Christian writers claimed that these beliefs were handed down by the apostles, and some of them were even taught by the apostles.
At that time, Catholic Answers regularly threw out a challenge not to take their word for any of the positions of the Catholic Church but see for oneself if they are true. I decided to take them up on this challenge, figuring it would be easy. First of all, the Catholic Church sets an impossible standard for itself: infallibility in its dogmatic teachings on matters of faith and morals. All I had to do was prove one doctrine false and the entire system would cease to be without error. Secondly, I was sure that when I found the writings of these "early Church Fathers" and read them in context, they would set the story straight.
But there was a catch. Along with this challenge, there was a caution: Be careful—you just might become Catholic. Yeah, right! Impossible.
My Ship Came In
I started with a slow and measured search into Catholic teaching and Church history. This all changed after a most unexpected event. I was invited to speak at a Foursquare high school camp in the summer of 2003. The man who owned the camp was a gracious servant of Jesus and was gifted with what our denomination calls "prophetic insight," meaning that God gave him insight into things of which he had no natural knowledge. I had never met him before, and as we got to know each other that week, he said he might have some insight from the Lord for me. These encounters usually yielded a general word of encouragement that could probably apply to anybody. Nonetheless, I met with him in his office to pray and see if God had any direction for me.
He began to pray and said he could see a picture in his mind. He saw me and my family standing on the ocean shore and in the water was a huge ship. He said on the side of the ship were the words "Queen Mary." (At this point in my study, I didn’t know that this is a title for Mary; my interest was concentrated on the huge ship.) He looked straight at me and said, "I’m not sure, but maybe you’re supposed to have something to do with the Catholic Church."
I almost fell out of my chair. I told him about my unexpected encounter with Catholicism—the radio shows, the early Church Fathers, the challenge. I left the camp thinking that God might use me in some type of bridge ministry between Protestants and Catholics. Of course, I assumed it would be for bringing Catholics out of Catholicism and into the true unity and "fullness" of Protestantism. With my renewed focus, I returned home and aggressively pursued understanding Catholic theology, Church history, and how I could serve God in this capacity. "If I’m going to reach Catholics," I thought, "I’ll need to know what they believe and how they support those beliefs."
Hitting the Wall
As I examined each point of theology, I found that the Catholic Church’s teachings were the most biblical, the most historical, and the most reasonable. I was also surprised to find that Catholics also believed in miracles and the Pentecostal gifts I had grown up with (but with a more sound foundation). I thought, "Oh man! If this is true, I have to become Catholic."
The day finally came where I hit the wall and realized that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I realized that Jesus truly did establish a Church and didn’t leave the gospel to survive in an "every man for himself" model. In the end, I found that I, like all Bible-based groups, could support my theology from Scripture, but I always had to ignore certain passages to make it fit, and I couldn’t provide any support for its existence in the history of the Church. I found that Catholic theology makes sense of the whole of Scripture and that only Catholic theology is attested to from writings before the death of the apostle John to the present day.
I wasn’t excited about this discovery, for it would cost me most of what I had invested over thirteen years of pastoral ministry. But my desire was to follow Christ, so I resigned my pastorate in August 2004. Once again my wife and I and three girls were without an income, with three months’ worth of money to live on and full of faith that God would provide. And he has.
Now that all of us have come home to the Church, we are constantly amazed at the grace that God provides for living a powerful, Spirit-filled life. When understood properly, Scripture, liturgy, prayer, and the sacraments are far more capable of shaping our Christian walk than any of the relaxed church structures in which I had grown up. I have found that the structure and liturgies that used to turn my stomach have become a greater source of joy than I could have ever imagined.
Converts often become great catholics! I too was impressed, especially on how Drake and Crystal prepare their children for mass each week, by reading the scriptures they will hear and discussing them. I do something similar with my religious education students. Our class is held just before mass. Towards the end of our lesson plan, we discuss that Sunday's readings. It has brought the liturgy alive for them.
Thank you for the post and your witness!
Then the Liturgy of the Eucharist began. I watched and listened as the priest pronounced the words of consecration and elevated the host. And I confess, the last drop of doubt drained away at that moment. I looked and said, "My Lord and my God." As the people began going forward to receive communion, I literally began to drool, "Lord, I want you. I want communion more fully with you. You've come into my heart. You're my personal Savior and Lord, but now I think You want to come onto my tongue and into my stomach, and into my body as well as my soul until this communion is complete." And as soon as it began, it was over. People stuck around for a minute or two for thanksgiving and then left. And eventually, I just walked out and wondered, what have I done? But the next day I was back,
and the next, and the next. I couldn't tell a soul. I couldn't tell my wife. But in two or three weeks I was hooked. I was head over heels in love with Christ and His Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. It became the source and the summit and the climax of each day, and I still couldn't tell anybody.
All just because the Mass is biblical! Hooray!
So if he now believes that the catholic church is the one true church does he feel that he has to answer for people that he “led astray” as a Protestant?
I must say that, on the whole, if you’re going to pick a Protestant denomination, Foursquare is a good place to be. It is firm in its moral teachings, and with its focus on living for Jesus, a person will inevitably grow closer and more like Jesus the longer he attends.Converts to Catholicism don't get filled with hate for the groups they leave behind.
“I’ve witnessed it, most who partake go through the motions.”
That’s a holy ability you have.
I wouldn’t dare attempt to discern other’s souls and attitudes.
But, then again, I’m just a run of the mill Christian. ~Not a particularly good one at that.
I’ve only known one person, a holy priest, able to read souls. That was an experience! He nailed my forgotten sins and stumbling block.
I’ve never stumbled over that particular block again.
Whatever it is it's apparently inadequate. I always regret afterward stepping into these theological and/or religious discussions and I apologise in advance for being out of my depth.
But to answer your question more adequately, my understanding is mostly based on "hearsay" from Roman Catholic friends and classmates growing up of what they were taught in Catechism classes, and with former (i.e. brought up Catholic) Roman Catholics who are now members of the church I and my family chose years ago to belong to (Disciples of Christ).
But speaking as someone with a fairly solid education and degree in History, the structure of the Catholic Church has long struck me as the sole remaining example of rule by a King's divine right with the Pope in the position of unquestionable arbiter between Man and God. If you question the Bishop of Rome you are questioning God.
The immense trappings of Medieval wealth and power one sees in a place like St. Peter's make a Czarist palace look like a country shack in comparison. Having been in both places I think I am qualified to observe, compare, and comment. And I understand why the Church is this way. After all, it was in place to supplant, took on, and retain many of the forms and trappings of Imperial Rome. Some of that obscures the fact that Catholics and Protestants agree on nearly all the basics as outlined in scripture, most importantly that *Jesus the Christ was and is exactly Who He said He was*.
PS: I don't object to the "trappings". I'm as susceptible to a sense of awe and majesty as anyone. Bottom line is I don't need it. Accepting literally, and trying with a frail human brain, to come to grips with *this* fact is quite mind blowing enough for me.
I forgot that one needs to be a deity to observe a human’s lack of sincerity and interest.
Comments like what? Praying to Jesus? That's not a comment, bro. That's right out of The Bible. You could look it up.
But I know how you Catholics are. You never back your stuff up with actual Bible verses. You just make vague allusions to church teachings or whatnot without ever specifying where the teaching came from.
Do at least try to refrain from making it personal.
And thanks, once again, for illustrating my point. I couldn't have gotten a better example if I had paid for it.
Why don't you ask him? Mind-reading of third parties may be technically permitted on this forum, but it's still a bad idea.
I am reminded of a conversion story I read a few years ago. IIRC, the fellow was Baptist. Among other things, he recounted having looked up many folks he "witnessed to" in his previous faith, and having explained to them why he now thought his previous testimony to them was wrong. He had been a Mormon. I may disagree with his present theology, but I admire his persistence and intellectual honesty. I can't say that I've ever read/heard about anyone else, of any religious persuasion, doing that.
Well, as you probably know, stuart, that statement is true for just about anything.
Theologically speaking, a "big picture perspective" means God creates and sustains all that is, was and will be, according to His own good pleasure alone.
Thanks so much for this.
Saved for later use.
Once again, you allude to some mysterious point without offering any substance with which to back it up. Namely a Bible verse.
I couldn't have gotten a better example if I had paid for it.
Yeah. Bummer how all that paying for absolution of sins and whatnot went away in the 1500s or 1600s or thereabouts.
I'm sure up till then you could allude to some mysterious teaching to justify the practice.
What changed? Hmmmmm...
Try reading the whole thread, from the beginning.
Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa!!!
Ahem. I'm not going to read all 116 posts. Just point to the one that justifies Priests charging for forgiving of sins or when and how the practice ended.
And while you're at it, when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, which Saint did he tell them to pray to?
Yes, that’s why I said it.
Your loss. In any case, my very first post to you indicated what I was talking about.
You've gone on and abundantly proven what I spoke of, for which I thank you.
Good day.
Thank you, katana, for a refreshingly honest reply. Many catholics are also ignorant of what constitutes papal infallibility. Let's begin with what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).
An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics. What infallibility does do is prevent a pope from solemnly and formally teaching as "truth" something that is, in fact, error. It does not help him know what is true, nor does it "inspire" him to teach what is true. He has to learn the truth the way we all do—through study—though, to be sure, he has certain advantages because of his position.
It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.
Many of the individuals who oppose the doctrine of papal infallibility claim to receive special revelations from God. Most believe that they can privately interpret Scripture in direct violation of 2 Peter 1:20. They characterize the doctrine of papal infallibility as arrogant, while claiming for themselves authority that goes far beyond it. And what is the fruit of their claims? Thousands of denominations all claim the Bible as their authority and yet all disagreeing on what it teaches. To make matters worse, many of their teachings change from time to time. Those who object to the doctrine of papal infallibility are the greatest proof of its need.
As for the immense trappings of Medieval wealth and power one sees in a place like St. Peter's , you may recall the media's great surprise when the Last Will of deceased Pope John Paul II was read and they learned he had no personal wealth. There is a great misconception that the Catholic Church is wealthy, because some of its churches are elaborately constructed. The big beautiful traditional Churches that receive the most complaints were not built with big bucks. They were built with the sweat of the brow of volunteers who worked 'till 11 PM every night after a full day of working their regular day jobs. They would do this for years until their community Parish was built. For the big European Churches it would take many generations. The Cologne Cathedral took 700 years! Why? Out of love for Christ, who is present in the Eucharist.
A good example in the secular world, is the White House. The American people built a beautiful home for their President, out of pride and respect for his position. Imagine how Catholics feel about showing their great love for God! Those magnificent paintings, sculptures and carved wood, are all gifts from the people. They bear the names of the donors. And yet catholics also recognize that Christ is present in the simplest of churches or no church at all. Catholic chaplains celebrate the mass on the back of jeeps or in fields. Don't be deceived by the grandeur. Our greatest treasures are the people we serve - the poor, the indigent, the sick and dying. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world.
I hope this information will encourage you to learn more about the Catholic Church and dispel the myths of those who are ignorant. Thank you again, for your post and ping.
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