Responding to the “that’s not official doctrine” deflection

I spent much of the General Conference weekend downtown doing video interviews for my GodNeverSinned.com project. At one point I shot some video of the missionaries trying to neutralize (“hymn-slam”?) one of the jeerers outside the Conference Center.

I added annotations to the video as a way of sharing and advertising. One Mormon responded:

Some of the little “bubbles” displayed randomly during this singing are not true of our beliefs. But, that’s how satan teaches – by giving half-truths. Hail to the Prophet Joseph Smith!

I asked for specifics, and what follows is the conversation that ensued. She wrote:

Actually, I just watched it again and all of the bubbles contain misinformation. The Book of Mormon outdated? Still contains the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the foundation of the church. We also believe in continued revelation. Ruling over planets? No, we don’t believe that. We believe we can become LIKE God – eternal and perfect. Not “gods” of our own planets. That especially is not doctrine. Maybe people assume that, but it is not doctrine.

God, angels, demons and humans all being the same “species”… well, in a sense, yes I guess, (except God our Father is on a whole different ‘plane’ than we are or will ever be.) God our Father created us ALL, and us “humans” in His image. There are different types of angels – spirits who have not come to earth, those who have come here and have been resurrected, those who have come to earth but not resurrected. Demons, I assume, satan’s followers – will never gain a body and were all created as spirit children of God. Just like the rest of us. They chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out along with him and will never live on this earth.

God being a sinner? I would like to see where you come up with that? We have NEVER taught that as doctrine, EVER. God is perfect, all knowing and all loving. We know the true nature of God – meaning He is a being. Where His beginning began? We don’t know. For us, He has always existed. We do not believe that, that is an absolute flat out lie. See how all these little bubbles contain mixed up truth? And even lies?? Come on. Who do you think the creator of all that IS?

Whether the Book of Mormon of 1830 represents contemporary doctrine of Mormonism in 2009 is a matter of opinion. On this issue I recommend this article by a respected Mormon historian.

I live in Utah, and know lots of Mormons. If you would ever like to have lunch with us, I’ll pay for your food. My Mormon friends are very up front about the future exaltation and ruling over planets as gods. Notice on this point how I appeal to “traditional Mormonism”. I chose that language as to not stereotype Mormons.

Your point about God and demons is compatible with my bubble. They are equivalent in species but varied in states and stages of development. My bubble chose careful language on this point.

On the God-as-former-sinner issue, I invite you to see a preview of my video project on that at GodNeverSinned.com. Regardless of it not being an explicit doctrine specifically promoted from the leadership, it is a mainstream (but not uniform) belief according to my research. I chose my language carefully on this, and said “many Mormons”, not “all Mormons” or “institutional Mormonism explicitly teaches”, etc.

Please tell me what you think of the GodNeverSinned.com project. It is entirely made up of video interviews with real Mormons (most of the video work so far was done this past General Conference weekend).

I do not wish to go back and forth with you. While your Mormon friends may talk about ‘being gods” and ruling over their own planet, it is still an assumption. There is no doctrine stating that, anywhere. Again, many things you point out ARE just assumptions. Not doctrine. No matter. I am sure you are very passionate in your beliefs and that is wonderful. I know the gospel is true. This knowledge has come from the Holy Ghost who testifies of truth. Have a lovely day.

I didn’t say it was formal doctrine. On many of those things I said things like, “Many Mormons believe”. You failed to distinguish between formal doctrine and actual mainstream beliefs, conflating the two, but when I pointed out that many Mormons actually believe thus stuff, you started distinguishing the two. Does that make sense?

We are free, of course, to form our own opinions… which is where you are getting your “information” it seems – from other Mormon’s opinions… and those are not doctrine. It is just interesting to me that this is how people like you like to discredit or bad-mouth the church… not focusing on the REAL doctrine, but from assumptions and opinions of members. Giving half-truths and misconceptions. I know the difference between what Mormons assume and what is doctrine, but others do not. They will read your misconceptions and take that as our “doctrine”… that is where confusion sets in. Oh well. All I can do is share my testimony of the gospel. Satan will continue to try to confuse and mislead people until Christ returns.

I know the gospel is true and that Joseph Smith was his prophet in this last dispensation, and that he restored the fullness of the gospel to the earth. I know the Book of Mormon is scripture, and that Joseph translated those ancient plates through the power and gift of Almighty God. I know Jesus Christ is my Savior and Redeemer and through Him, all things are possible.

If a majority of church members believe something bad, and it happens to be fostered or implied by the rest of the traditional Mormon worldview, the LDS Church leadership still has a responsibility not to acquiesce to it. Otherwise they are complicit to a degree in the continuance of the belief among lay members, all the while having the ability to reverse the popular belief.

Also, what matters to outsiders like me is not merely abstract official doctrine (whichever of the varying standards you use to define that; Mormons themselves simply disagree over what constitutes official doctrine), but also what beliefs are actually held among members. I know it is embarrassing that many Mormon members believe that God the Father could have been a sinner, but the Mormon worldview and historic leadership have something to account for that. They are not off the hook just because they haven’t put it in a recent First Presidency statement, etc.,

I have never been embarrased by what others assume – even in the LDS church. They are also free to do so. I know the doctrine and THAT, the doctrine, IS what matters. It actually doesn’t matter what other members speculate about… because it is just that, speculation.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">You might note a couple of other
tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of
disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a
Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak
volumes about them though. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=b2>

 
<HR>


<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr>
<DIV>Matthew 15:16    "Are you still so
dull?" Jesus asked them. </DIV>
<DIV> Matthew 23</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and
to his disciples:   2.  "The teachers of the law and the
Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.   3.  So you must obey them and do
everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice
what they preach.   4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on
men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move
them.   5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They
make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
   6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most
important seats in the synagogues;   7.  they love to be greeted
in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'   8. 
"But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you
are all brothers.   9.  And do not call anyone on earth
`father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.  10. 
Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
  11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
  12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever
humbles himself will be exalted.  13.  "Woe to you, teachers of
the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You
yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying
to.   14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and
for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater
damnation.   15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees,
you hypocrites! You travel over
land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you
are.   16.  "Woe to you,
blind guides! You say, `If anyone
swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of
the temple, he is bound by his oath.'  17.  You blind fools! Which is
greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
  18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means
nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
  19.  You blind men!
Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
  20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by
everything on it.  21.  And he who swears by the temple swears
by it and by the one who dwells in it.  22.  And he who swears
by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
  23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees,
you hypocrites! You give a tenth
of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more
important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have
practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.  24. 
You blind guides! You strain out a
gnat but swallow a camel.  25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law
and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and
self-indulgence.  26.  Blind
Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then
the outside also will be clean.  27.  "Woe to you, teachers of
the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look
beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and
everything unclean.  28.  In the same way, on the outside you
appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and
wickedness.  29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
  30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our
forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of
the prophets.'  31.  So you testify against yourselves that you
are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.  32. 
Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!  33. 
"You snakes! You brood of vipers!
How will you escape being condemned to hell?  34.  Therefore I
am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill
and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to
town.  35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood
that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of
Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
  36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this
generation.  37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the
prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were
not willing.  38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
  39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
`Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' " </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Mark 7:26-27  26.  The woman was a Greek, born in
Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
  27.  "First let the children eat all they
want," he told her, "for it is not right to take
the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
And St. Paul chimes in...
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV> Galatians 5:12    As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

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