[GonzoII]

2Thes:2:15:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

(KJV)

[sr4402]

1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.": The Lord Jesus Christ taught Sola Scriptura

[DesScorp]

Here’s the problem to refuting Sola Scriptura: you’ve just opened the door to all those that want to “phase out” the parts of the Bible they don’t like, i.e. homosexual conduct.

[jonrick46]

For later read.

[onthelookout777]

Free online courses:

Bible Framework - taught by Charles Clough
http://www.bibleframework.com/course/study-online/

Can We Trust the Bible? (Bibliology) - taught by Dr. Robert L. Dean, Jr.
http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q=f&f=%2FAudio+Files%2F2004+-+Can+We+Trust+The+Bible

[mnehring]

11. It assumes the infallibility of man’s understanding.

[bkaycee]

2Thes:2:15:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Care to name any of these oral traditions?

Do you have an infallible list of them we can see?

[bkaycee]

Cyril of Jerusalem (A.D. 315-386) is reflective of the overall view of the Fathers:

Concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures; nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee of these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures....In these articles we comprehend the whole doctrine of faith….For the articles of the Faith were not composed at the good pleasure of men, but the most important points chosen from all Scriptures, make up the one teaching of the Faith….This Faith, in a few words, hath enfolded in its bosom the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testaments. Behold, therefore, brethren and hold the traditions (2 Thes. 2:15) which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your hearts....Now heed not any ingenious views of mine; else thou mayest be misled; but unless thou receive the witness of the prophets concerning each matter, believe not what is spoken; unless thou learn from Holy Scripture....receive not the witness of man.

Cyril of Jerusalem was a bishop of one of the most important sees of the church and responsible for instructing catechumens in the faith. No clearer concept of sola scriptura could be given than that seen in these statements of Cyril. He equates the teaching he is handing on to these catechumens with tradition, in which he specifically references 2 Thessalonians 2:15, that he says must be proven by Scripture. Tradition is simply the teaching of the church that he is passing on orally, but that tradition must be validated by the written Scriptures. He states further that the extent of authority vested in any teacher, be he bishop or layman, is limited to Scripture. No teaching is to be received that cannot be proven from Scripture. The church does have authority, as Cyril himself acknowledges, but it is an authority grounded in fidelity to Scripture and not principally in succession. According to Cyril, the church is subject to the final authority of Scripture, and even the church is to be disregarded if it moves outside that authority in its teaching.

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Testimony.html

[NEWwoman]

As a Protestant, I find this post very enlightening, especially with the Biblical references.

I’ve bookmarked it (and the original website) for later reference.

[The Comedian]

Sola Scriptura defense against this barking madness:

Deuteronomy 4:2 - Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 - What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:5-6 - Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 1:1-3 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev. 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Galatians 1:6-12 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The references go on and on. Turn from this evil that you might have this oppressive doctrine lifted from your sight.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

If it isn’t in the Bible, God’s Word...

And it wasn’t included in the Apostles tradition that was passed along while the Apostles were alive, as referenced in I Thess. 2:15... “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

Then it is simply an accretion of the centuries added by the traditions of men and should be rejected whenever contradicts God’s Word or adds to it.

These traditions of men include a boatload of falsehood that is now part of the doctrine of the church, unfortunately.

best,
ampu

[PetroniusMaximus]

1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible
YES IT IS!

2. The "Word of God" Refers to Oral Teaching Also
So?

3. Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word
It often is in the NT

4. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions
Rarely, and so?

5. The Apostles Exercised Authority at the Council of Jerusalem
So?

6. Pharisees, Sadducees, and Oral, Extrabiblical Tradition
Whatever!

7. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura
Proof? (A bit more that two references for such a major topic)

8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant "Proof Text"
Nope!

9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding
So?

10. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position
Ecclesiastical Authority is ALSO a Circular Position. Why can’t you folks SEE that!

[PetroniusMaximus]

You’re never going to build up the Church by tearing down the Scriptures!!!

[Sloth]

The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations. Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding. Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or constitutional amendment. In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.

LOL... FR is hardly the website to post *this* argument on. We do not not need some official interpreters strutting around in robes to tell us what either document says. 'Sola Scriptura' is strict constructionism of the Bible.

[Iscool]

So the people did indeed understand the law (cf. Neh. 8:8, 12), but not without much assistance—not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament (cf. Mark 4:33–34; Acts 8:30–31; 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16).

Of course this whole piece is a big mess but I couldn't resist refuting this ridiculous paragraph in light of what the scripture actually teaches...

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Now compare what God says to the stuff your religion puts out...You guys think you can understand God's words without God...

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

Oh brother...Moses taught out of a book...The scripture...Jesus said 'it is written' 63 times...

The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the "three-legged stool": Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

Sorry Charlie...The bible hasn't collapsed...The only things that collapsed are your religion and your tradition...The bible is still standing, with it's one leg...

[Mr Rogers]

First, the Apostles and Jesus cited scripture as authoritative. When Jesus Himself argued with Satan, he quoted scripture. That, at a minimum, means a tradition cannot contradict scripture.

So if a church says Mary was taken up to heaven without tasting death, well...the scripture is silent, so believe what you want.

OTOH, when a church says Mary remained a virgin forever, well...there are multiple passages that indicate otherwise. If you choose to believe it REALLY meant cousin, I cannot stop you, but I expect you to understand why I reject what you say.

And when a church rules that a bishop (elder) must be single, that contradicts scripture. Again, I cannot prevent you from believing it, but you ought to understand why I reject it and the church that makes the claim.

Not all prophecies were written down and accepted as scripture. That doesn’t make them false, but if they contradict the scriptures, THEN they are false.

Also, there is no continuing revelation to the church. Paul told the elders in Acts 20 that he taught the whole counsel of God - not part, with some hidden. And John told Christians in 2 John to “abide in the teaching of Christ”.

If you wish to add other teaching (Papal Supremacy, Indulgences, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, etc), I cannot stop you. But for me, I’ll be content to abide in the whole counsel of God as taught by the Apostles.

[RnMomof7]

St. Augustine City of God book XI Chapter 3

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life ...
Source: St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, book II, Chap. 9,

Chapter1, #3 ... I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.
Letter 82 From Augustine to Jerome.

For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth,謡hile there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know,耀till, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them,葉he faith, namely, of Christ the Saviour; lest any should hold cheap the doctrine taught among us, or think faith. in Christ unreasonable.
Contra Gentes (Against the Heathen.), by St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria; and Doctor of the Church; about 318 A.D.

[RnMomof7]

Athanasius wrote:

“Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith’s sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrines so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture” (De Synodis, 6)

Cyril of Jerusalem wrote:

“For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.” (Lecture 4:17)

[RnMomof7]

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130-202) 

We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel the y truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith. (Adv. H. 3:1) 

Read more diligently that gospel which is given to us by the apostles; and read more diligently the prophets, and you will find every action and the whole doctrine of our Lord preached in them. (Adv. H. 4:66)

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CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150?-213?) 

They that are ready to spend their time in the best things will not give over seeking for truth until they have found the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves. (Stromata 7:16:3) 

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ORIGEN (185?-252) 

In which (the two Testaments) every word that appertains to God may be required and discussed; and all knowledge may be understood out of them. But if anything remain which the Holy Scripture does not determine, no other third Scripture ought to be received for authorizing any knowledge or doctrine; but that which remains we must commit to the fire, that is, we will reserve it for God. For in this present world God would not have us to know all things. (Orig. in Lev., hom. 5, 9:6) 

We know Jesus Christ is God, and we seek to expound the words which are spoken, according to the dignity of the person. Wherefore it is necessary for us to call the Scriptures into testimony; for our meanings and enarrations, without these witnesses, have no credibility. (Tractatus 5 in Matt.) 

No man ought, for the confirmation of doctrines, to use books which are not canonized Scriptures. (Tract. 26 in Matt.) 

As all gold, whatsoever it be, that is without the temple, is not holy; even so every notion which is without the divine Scripture, however admirable it may appear to some, is not holy, because it is foreign to Scripture. (Hom. 25 in Matt.) 

Consider how imminent their danger is who neglect to study the Scriptures, in which alone the discernment of this can be ascertained. (in Rom. 10:16) 

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (200?-258) 

Whence comes this tradition? Does it descend from the Lord’s authority, or from the commands and epistles of the apostles? For those things are to be done which are there written. ... If it be commanded in the gospels or the epistles and Acts of the Apostles, then let this holy tradition be observed. (Ep. 74 ad Pompeium) 

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HIPPOLYTUS ( -230?) 

There is one God, whom we do not otherwise acknowledge, brethren, but out of the Holy Scriptures. For as he that would possess the wisdom of this world cannot otherwise obtain it than to read the doctrines of the philosophers; so whosoever of us will exercise piety toward God cannot learn this elsewhere but out of the Holy Scriptures. Whatsoever, therefore, the Holy Scriptures do preach, that let us know, and whatsoever they teach, that let us understand. (Hip. tom. 3, Bibliotheque Patrium, ed. 

Colonna) ************************************************************************

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA* (300?-375) 

The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth. (Orat. adv. Gent., ad cap.) 

The Catholic Christians will neither speak nor endure to hear any thing in religion that is a stranger to Scripture; it being an evil heart of immodesty to speak those things which are not written. (Exhort. ad Monachas) 

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN* (340?-396) 

How can we use those things which we do not find in the Holy Scriptures? (Ambr. Offic., 1:23) 

I read that he is the first, I read that he is not the second; they who say he is the second, let them show it by reading. (Ambr. Offic., in Virginis Instit. 11) 

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ST. HILARY OF POITIERS (315-367) 

O emperor! I admire your faith, which desires only according to those things that were written. ... You seek the faith, O emperor. Hear it then, not from new writings, but from the books of God. Remember that it is not a question of philosophy, but a doctrine of the gospel. (Ad Constant. Augus. 2:8:2) 

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ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA (330?-395) 

Let a man be persuaded of the truth of that alone which has the seal of the written testimony. (De Anima et Resurrectione, 1) 

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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (315?-386) 

Not even the least of the divine and holy mysteries of the faith ought to be handed down without the divine Scriptures. Do not simply give faith to me speaking these things to you except you have the proof of what I say from the divine Scriptures. For the security and preservation of our faith are not supported by ingenuity of speech, but by the proofs of the divine Scriptures. (Cat. 4) 

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ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM OF ANTIOCH AND BYZANTIUM* (347-407) 

[The Scripture], like a safe door, denies an entrance to heretics, guarding us in safety in all things we desire, and not permitting us to be deceived. ...Whoever uses not the Scriptures, but comes in otherwise, that is, cuts out for himself a different and unlawful way, the same is a thief. (Homily 59, in Joh. 2:8) 

Formerly it might have been ascertained by various means which was the true church, but at present there is no other method left for those who are willing to discover the true church of Christ but by the Scriptures alone. And why? Because heresy has all outward observances in common with her. If a man, therefore, be desirous of knowing the true church, how will he be able to do it amid so great resemblance, but by the Scriptures alone? Wherefore our Lord, foreseeing that such a great confusion of things would take place in the latter days, ordered the Christians to have recourse to nothing but the Scriptures. 

The man of God could not be perfect without the Scriptures. [Paul says to Timothy:] “You have the Scriptures: if you desire to learn anything, you may learn it from them.” But if he writes these things to Timothy, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, how much more must we think these things spoken to us. (Hom. 9 in 2 Tim. 1:9) 

It is absurd, while we will not trust other people in pecuniary affairs, but choose to reckon and calculate for ourselves, that in matters of far higher consequence we should implicitly follow the opinions of others, especially as we possess the most exact and perfect rule and standard by which to regulate our several inquiries: I mean the regulation of the divine laws. I, therefore, could wish that all of you would reject what this or that man says, and that you would investigate all these things in the Scriptures. (Hom. 13, 4:10 ad fin. in 2 Cor.) 

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THEOPHILUS OF ALEXANDRIA ( -412) 

It is the part of a devilish spirit to think any thing to be divine that is not in the authority of the Holy Scriptures. (Ep. Pasch. 2) 

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ST. JEROME* (342?-420) 

The church of Christ, possessing churches in all the world, is united by the unity of the Spirit, and has the cities of the law, the prophets, the gospels, and the apostles. She has not gone forth from her boundaries, that is, from the Holy Scriptures. (Comm. in Micha. 1:1) 

Those things which they make and find, as it were, by apostolical tradition, without the authority and testimony of Scripture, the word of God smites. (ad Aggai 1) 

As we deny not those things that are written, so we refuse those things that are not written. That God was born of a virgin we believe, because we read it; that Mary did marry after she was delivered we believe not, because we do not read it. (Adv. Helvidium) 

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ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO* (354-430) 

In those things which are clearly laid down in Scripture, all those things are found which pertain to faith and morals. (De Doct. Chr. 2:9) 

Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud. (De Pastore, 11) 

All those things which in times past our ancestors have mentioned to be done toward mankind and have delivered unto us: all those things also which we see and deliver to our posterity, so far as they pertain to the seeking and maintaining true religion, the Holy Scripture has not passed over in silence. (Ep. 42) 

Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions and sayings he commanded his apostles and disciples, as his hands, to write. (De Consensu Evang. 1:ult.) 

Let them [the Donatists] demonstrate their church if they can, not by the talk and rumor of the Africans; not by the councils of their own bishops; not by the books of their disputers; not by deceitful miracles, against which we are cautioned by the word of God, but in the prescript of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the verses of the Psalms, in the voice of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and works of the evangelists; that is, in all canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures. (De Unit. Eccl. 16) 

 *********************************************************************** *

ST. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA (380?-444) 

That which the Holy Scriptures have not said, by what means should we receive and account it among those things that are true? (Glaphyrarum in Gen. 2) 

 ************************************&******************************* THEODORET OF CYRRHUS (393?-458?) 

By the Holy Scriptures alone am I persuaded. (Dial. 1, Atrept.) I am not so bold as to affirm anything which the sacred Scripture passes in silence. (Dial. 2, Asynchyt.) 

We ought not to seek those things that are passed in silence, but rest in the things which are written. (in Gen. Q. 45) 

 ************************************************* 

ST. JOHN OF DAMASCUS (675?-749?) 

We receive and acknowledge and reverence all things which are delivered in the law, the prophets, the apostles and evangelists, and we seek after nothing beyond these. (de Fid. Ortho. 1:1:1) 



[dangerdoc]

What about traditions that have been left behind over the year?

[sayuncledave]

Thank you GonzoII, for that post. Though I fear folks are missing the point. I guess that’s to be expected.