A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson

[Colofornian]

The founder of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith, claimed an angel named Moroni visited him in September of 1823. This heavenly messenger is reported to have told him about gold plates that contained a record of "former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang." The plates were said to contain "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel" as it was "delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants." In order to translate the language contained on the plates (a language called "Reformed Egyptian"), two stones in silver bows, called the Urim and Thummim, were included with the plates (Joseph Smith History 1:34,35). According to Smith's testimony, four more years went by before the angel allowed him to retrieve the gold plates.

Joseph Smith said,

"each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed" (History of the Church 4:537).

The question at hand, then, is whether or not Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon plates is true. If Smith truly was a prophet with the ability to decipher plates of an unknown language which were said to contain the story of Jesus' appearance in the Americas, then this man should be revered and his translation of this ancient work heralded as God's word to mankind. On the other hand, if the translation has no basis in fact, but instead is based on fraud, then it should be exposed and the man's teachings about God and faith should be debunked. This is the difference between the way Mormons and critics of the LDS Church view Mormonism's first prophet. What is the evidence?

The method in which Joseph Smith "translated" the gold plates has been a source of interest to many people who have studied the origins of the LDS movement. While many paintings and pictures used in Mormon visitor's centers and books depict a prayerful Smith leaning over the plates, many contemporaries of Smith admit that he used a hat and a seer stone as a means of bringing about this "divine" record.

In his Comprehensive History of the Church (CHC), LDS historian and Seventy Brigham H. Roberts quotes Martin Harris, one of the three witnesses whose name is found in every edition of the Book of Mormon since its original edition. Harris said that the seer stone Smith possessed was a "chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum." Harris went on to say it was by using this stone that "Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates" (CHC 1:129).

Martin Harris was one of the scribes Joseph Smith used to record the writing on the plates. This enabled him to give a first-hand account of how Smith performed this translation. Harris noted,

"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).

Harris' description concurs with that of David Whitmer, another one of the three witnesses whose testimony appears at the front of the Book of Mormon. Whitmer details exactly how the stone produced the English interpretation. On page 12 of his book An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote,

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Robert N. Hullinger, in his book: Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism, cites a personal interview Emma Smith-Bidamon gave to a committee of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1879. He notes on pages 9-10: "Smith's wife Emma supported Harris's and Whitmer's versions of the story in recalling that her husband buried his face in his hat while she was serving as his scribe."

Dan Vogel also mentions Emma's 1879 interview on pages 98-99 of his book, The Word of God:

"Smith's wife, Emma Smith Bidamon, was interviewed late in her life by her son Joseph Smith III about her knowledge of the early [p.99] church. This interview took place in February 1879 in the presence of Lewis C. Bidamon, her husband. At one point Emma stated the following: ‘In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us... .'"

In volume two of "A New Witness for Christ in America," LDS writer Francis Kirkham notes that Joseph Smith's brother William also confirmed the use of the hat and seer stone. His account is also similar to the accounts given by Harris and Whitmer although he refers to the seer stone as the "Urim and Thummim." He stated, "The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God" (2:417). William's account leads us to wonder why Smith went through the bother of digging up the alleged plates if he didn't even have to look at them during the "translation."

Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and William Smith all agree that Joseph Smith used a seer stone and a hat in the translation process. Interestingly enough, an article in the January 1997 LDS Church publication Ensign leaves out any mention of the hat and deemphasizes the seer stone. In fact, LDS Apostle Neal Maxwell, who authored the article, quotes Apostle Orson Pratt from 1874 as saying that Smith relied less and less upon the seer stones the more he learned how to translate (pg. 39). It seems odd that God would provide these instruments and then allow the translator to have more freedom as the translation went on. And it seems extremely curious that Maxwell makes no reference to the hat. In fact, a picture on page 38 shows the dutiful Oliver Cowdery writing down the English translation while Smith appears to be translating. In this picture there is no sign of the so-called seer stones or the hat. What could be the reason for leaving these items out of a publicity painting except to distance the translation from the ocultic practices that really characterized the Book of Mormon translation! The use of similar types of seer stones, or peep stones as they were also called, was quite common among believers in folk magic during the time of Joseph Smith. There is plenty of evidence to show that Smith, the one whom Mormons claim God used to restore the "true" church, was quite fascinated with the occult, as were members of his immediate family.

According to a court record dated March 20, 1826, Smith was described as a "glass-looker," a common scam in which the glass looker claimed to have the ability to find buried treasure (for a fee, of course). Obviously, many Mormons have tried to deny that Smith had anything to do with glass looking or money digging. Joseph F. Smith, Mormonism's sixth president, concluded that such a title was used by enemies to injure the prophet's credibility. He wrote:

"He was called a 'money digger,' and many other contemptuous things. If you will look at his history, and at the character of his parents, and surroundings, and consider the object of his life, you can discover how much consistency there was in the charges brought against him. All this was done to injure him. He was neither old nor a 'money digger,' nor an impostor, nor in any manner deserving of the epithets which they applied to him."

The problem with Smith's conclusion is that Joseph Smith admitted to being a money digger in an interview printed in the "Elders' Journal" (v.1, num.2, pp.28,29). (See also The Documentary History of the Church 3:29, and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg.120.)

It seems apparent that the Book of Mormon was, in fact, brought about using an occultic method. If so many witnesses testify to Smith's use of a hat and a magical rock, why don't Mormon books and periodicals, for the sake of accuracy, emphasize the fact? Why do the pictures of Smith translating from the plates--as shown in the January 1997 Ensign--have him deep in thought rather than looking into a hat?

In our opinion, the answer to these questions stems from the fact that the earlier accounts are embarrassing to the LDS Church, so a better, more "faith-promoting" account has been proposed. Despite the early documentation, as provided by some of the witnesses of the actual translation, history has been revised to restore credibility to the original creation of the LDS Church. For instance, tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith, who previously served as an LDS Church historian for 50 years, denied Joseph Smith's use of the seer stone. He wrote:

"While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22-24.

"These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:225-226).

Apostle Maxwell says the translation process should strengthen the faith of the faithful Mormon. He writes:

"Our primary focus in studying the Book of Mormon should be on the principles of the gospel anyway, not on the process by which the book came forth. Yet because its coming so amply fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy of a `marvelous work and a wonder,' we may find strengthened faith in considering how marvelous and wondrous the translation was..." (Ensign, January 1997, pg. 39)

If this process should strengthen the believer's testimony, then why isn't the true process being told?

But Maxwell goes on. Although allowing for the possibility that seer stones could have been used by Smith, Maxwell says this did not mean Smith was translating letter by letter as the earlier witnesses suggest he did. If he was using these "divine instrumentalities" to translate the language into English,

"he was not necessarily and constantly scrutinizing the characters on the plates--the usual translation process of going back and forth between pondering an ancient text and providing a modern rendering...While the use of divine instrumentalities might also account for the rapid rate of translation, the Prophet sometimes may have used a less mechanical procedure. We simply do not know the details" (pg. 39).

What is interesting in this assertion is that Smith, whom Maxwell admits did not know any ancient languages and was said to be ignorant of the facts in his Bible, could have improved his translation abilities without becoming proficient in the language he was translating! It also goes against the explanations of the earlier witnesses.

Maxwell also makes it a point to concur with Emma Smith’s account that there was probably no blanket or curtain hung between Joseph Smith and his various scribes during this process. Maxwell feels that a curtain/separator was used only to partition off the living area to keep the translator and scribe from the eyes of visitors. Again the LDS Church seems to be revising its history. When Bill McKeever visited the restored Peter Whitmer cabin at Fayette (NY) in April of 1990, a curtain was hanging between two tables where the translation supposedly took place. In the adjacent visitor's center a painting of Smith "translating" the plates also showed a curtain separating Smith and his scribe. Page 29 of the book, Meet the Mormons (1965 ed.), also shows a curtain separating Smith from his scribe Oliver Cowdery.

In conclusion, we feel that the move away from the actual facts of the translation process of the Book of Mormon demonstrates a lack of credibility on the part of LDS leaders. No doubt they understand that most people would balk in accepting the Book of Mormon if it was known to have been "translated" by using a magical rock and a hat. Eyewitness accounts clearly conflict with the image the LDS Church is currently attempting to portray. We pray that both the LDS people, and those investigating the LDS Church, will take a closer look at how this supposedly "sacred" book came about.

[Paragon Defender]

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their forner Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Elsie]

Last August we fed 250 people on our front meadow.

er how many GOATS could feed on that...

[Elsie]

 "I have seen several entirely sincere people who thought they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. That was the end of the search. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth he sought no further; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors." (from What is Man?)

-- Mark Twain

 

[Elsie]

OOooohhh!

PD!!

I LIKE this link!

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Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship Mission Statement

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship exists to:

• Describe and defend the Restoration through highest quality scholarship
• Provide critically edited, primary resources (ancient religious texts) to scholars and laypersons around the world
• Build bridges of understanding and goodwill to Muslim scholars by providing superior editions of primary texts
• Provide an anchor of faith in a sea of LDS Studies

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[Elsie]

PD; I like this link, too!

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Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

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FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

 

 

[Elsie]

PD; you have got some EXCELLANT web links!

I'm SO glad you've posted them!!!

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Godhead

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe, as do other Christians, in one Supreme Being who governs the universe, and who is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. However, Mormons don't believe that He works alone but as the presiding member of what they call the godhead.

The Bible dictionary says that God is “The Supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23).”

 Mormons believe that these three gods—”separate in personality {but}. . . united as one in purpose, in plan, and in all the attributes of perfection” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 317)—are the partnership which rules the universe, with God the Eternal Father the controlling and governing power. LDS Apostle James E. Talmage states it this way: “These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens” (Jesus the Christ, p. 32).

This belief is distinct from the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which generally maintains that they are three persons but one in essence. All three members of the Godhead are eternal and equally divine, but play somewhat different roles.

 

 

(From MORMON.wiki --->  http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead )   Move along: no agenda here...

[Elsie]

Yup, PD, REALLY good links!

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God the Father

Our Heavenly Father, also called Elohim, stands in the exalted position above all beings.

 However, Joseph Smith says that “. . . he is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . .If you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, form, and image of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another” (Documentary History of the Church, p. 305).

 

 

Yup; the same source as above http://www.mormonwiki.com/Godhead 

[Elsie]

Oh, PD...

THIS is rich!

 

The purpose of this section is not to prove that the claims of the Church are true.

 

From lightplanet

 

[Elsie]

 

 

 

 

 

Where are them delightsome ladies at?

 

[Elsie]

Now THAT was a high-speed/high-volume ELSIEthon!

[MHGinTN]

From the article: "By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).

If that account were true then Joseph Smith would not have included the word 'Lucifer' in the passage found in the supposed book of Nephi which quotes directly the passage in Isaiah chapter 14 written in 600BC, because the LATIN name 'Lucifer' didn't show up in translations of the Tanakh until Jerome's translation in the second century. When Isaiah was recorded Latin wasn't even a language yet! Smith was a liar, a conman, and his 'witnesses' were either conned or lying to cover him and themselves in subsequent years.

[MHGinTN]

The Latin name 'Lucifer' is not found in this Hebrew passage, Isaih 14:12 ...

איך נפלת משמים הילל בן־שחר נגדעת לארץ חולש על־גוים׃

The Latin name Lucifer is not found in even the poorly translated Septuagint (Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures). Some translation we have today have been careful enough to not include that 'traditions of men' Latin name for the wording in Isaiah 14:12, like Young's literal translation [14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations]. Reading the passage in context, it become apparent that Isaiah was being sarcastic toward this Babylonian king who had terrorized the Israelites and presented himself so 'exalted'.

[Tennessee Nana]

Mormonism is NOT Christianity

The foul practice of polygamy is not part of Christianity..

Idol worship of the pagan Joey Smith is not part of Christianity...

Multiple gods are not part of Christianity...

A non-virgin Mary is not part of Christianity...

Only males going to Heaven is not part of Christianity...

Males becoming gods is not part of Christianity...

Males ruling their own planet is not part of Christianity...

A priesthood system as practiced by the mormons is not part of Christianity

Women as sex slaves in a harem is not part of Christianity...

Women having babies forever is not part of Christianity...

Women being called from their graves by husbands who decide the woman’s fate is not part of Christianity...

Degradation of women through adultery and so called “celestial marriage” is not part of Christianity...

Three levels of Heaven is not part of Christianity

Sex in Heaven is not part of Christianity…

Men marrying their mother-in-law is not part of Christianity…

Men marrying their daughter-in-law is not part of Christianity..

Men marrying their wife’s sister is not part of Christianity

Special underwear are not part of Christianity..

Special ceremony clothes are not part of Christianity…

Joey Smith deciding who gets into Heaven is not part of Christianity...

Joey Smith as the savior is not part of Christianity...

Recognizing and worshipping the blasphemous Joey Smith is not part of Christianty...

Claiming Joey Smith is equal to God is not part of Christianty...

Joey Smith claiming to be greater than Jesus is not part of Christianty...

Dead dunking is not part of Christianity...

The idol on top of the mormon temples is not part of Christianity...

The mormon temples are not part of Christianity...

Gathering in “zion” whether its in Missouri or Utah is not part of Christianity...

The return of the mormon jesus to Missouri is not part of Christianity...

The belief that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri is not part of Christianity...

People living on the sun and the moon is not part of Christianity...

The belief that the mormon jesus visited Central America is not part of Christianity...

Freemasonry as practiced by the mormons is not part of Christianity...

Endowments are not part of Christianity...

The book of mormon is not part of Christianity

The tall tales of Joey Smith are not part of Christianity

Mythical ancient civilizations in Central America are not part of Christianity

The so called “visions” and false prophecies of Joey Smith are not part of Christianity

The mormon Mary having sex with one of the mormon gods is not part of Christianity...

The absence of a cross on a building is not part of Christianity

Pagan and Freemasonry symbols on a building are not part of Christianity

“Going through the temple” is not part of Christianity...

The denial that Jesus is God is not part of Christianity...

The denial that the Holy Ghost is God is not part of Christianity...

The denial of the Trinity is not part of Christianity...

The belief that the mormon god was once a man is not part of Christianity

The belief that the mormon god was a polygamist is not part of Christianity...

The belief that the mormon jesus was a polygamist is not part of Christianity...

The belief that monogamy...one man, one woman...is prostitution is not part of Christianity...

The belief that David went to Hell forever is not part of Christianity.

The belief that David will not be in Heaven is not part of Christianity….

Paying tithes to be saved is not part of Christianity......

Works to be saved is not part of Christianity

Being a member of the mormon corporation is not part of Christianity...

The mormon jesus sweating in the Garden of Gethsemane for “atonement” is not part of Christianity...

The insulting, degrading, blasphemous false religion of mormonism is not Christianity...

I have never stopped MORMONS from practicing their own religion..

They are free to do so...

I do however state once again for the record...

Mormonism is NOT Christianity...

And if that’s considered “nasty” or “hateful” I’m in good company...

Because I’m just agreeing with the God of the Christian Bible...

King James Version included...

[Elsie]

 

 This is what Robert Millet, former Dean of Religious Education at BYU and spokesperson for the Church in conversations between an evangelical and a Mormon said about the Mormon religion.    In his book Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth, (p. 140)   Millet stated,

 

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation.

No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel,

no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church."

 

[magritte]

Okay, why does he think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to salvation? Is there more to this quote or was that a complete statement?

[dragonblustar]

Smith lived not too far from where I am. One of the most prominent local history books circa 1877....says this "religion" will soon pass. Only goes to show how easily people can be sucked in...Drink the kool aid...

They're birthing new members.

[Utah Binger]

They would eat us out of house and home. Maybe if you come down and herd them we could control those beasts.

[Godzilla]

Seekers of truth,

will note that the fact that smith used a peep or 'seer' stone in a hat instead of special glasses is something that you will not find presented by these links. This is the mormon propaganda

This is the truth -

Don't expect PD to address these issues - ignorance is bliss and some mormons are very blissful

[Elsie]

Is there more to this quote or was that a complete statement?

Ask PD and he'll publish his list-o-links again.

[Elsie]

Is there more to this quote or was that a complete statement?

This might give a clue:

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

 

 

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

 

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

 Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

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