Posted on 12/18/2010 6:01:48 PM PST by Gamecock
So much like the enemy of mens souls to distract from the Savior by elevating one of Gods many servants over Him....and calling it Christian...when in fact it is indeed idolatry and hurts the very souls of those who practice Mariology.
Latin Vulgate 6:3 nonne iste est faber filius Mariae frater Iacobi et Ioseph et Iudae et Simonis nonne et sorores eius hic nobiscum sunt et scandalizabantur in illo
King James Version 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
American Standard Version 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.
Bible in Basic English 6:3 Is not this the woodworker, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were bitter against him.
Darby's English Translation 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.
Douay Rheims 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
Noah Webster Bible 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Weymouth New Testament 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, Mary's son, the brother of James and Joses, Jude and Simon? And do not his sisters live here among us?' So they turned angrily away.
World English Bible 6:3 Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?' They were offended by him.
Young's Literal Translation 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him.
It appears to me that the best argument you may have is in the placement of the comma after the phrase "the son of Mary" in several of these translations.
Again, I point to what purpose God might have in making Mary to be a "perpetual virgin". God does not do miracles on a whim. They always have a purpose (cf. "speaking in tongues."). Apply Occam's Razor.
I do not have the time or desire on this Sunday morning to learn Greek and translate the original scripture. I have made a good faith attempt to find as original source as possible.
Stating that "Luther believed it so it must be true" is not good enough for me. Citing sources dated in the 1500s also is not good enough for me.
I believe what is actually written. Period.
I guess it’s time for me to drop the sarcasm.
I apologize and ask for your forgiveness. I’m still a work in progress.
God bless you for the reference on Haydock this Sunday morning.
Without the CATHOLIC Charles Martel, we’d all be speaking Arabic tonight on this forum.
I would dare say that we would not only not be having this forum, but we would be stuck with at best tenth century technology. It was the Judeo-Christian cultural environment that encouraged the scientific discoveries.
Gamecock,
Have just finished reading more of MCArthurs sermons on the Catholic Sytem of Beliefs. WOW! Does he ever call a spade a spade and that with stong scripture easily read and understood.
I have suspected the worship of Mary in the catholic church is idolatry but I was willing to read and learn why they do this. Further investigation certainly proves that not only are they commiting idolatry...but I do believe they are under the judgement of God for doing so with the homosexual and pedophile’s infilitrating and securley fixed in their church. At the very least it is to be considered as the leadership certainly continues to be lax in ridding the church of those people...rather continues to stretch out their existance within.
I’ll be reading more of what McArthur is saying in this next week. He certainly brings it together remarkably well and agrees with all I have read in other sermons and writings. Most of all the scriptures prove it all.
Indeed they are taught this...maybe you have not graduated far enough yet to the next level of teaching. Perhaps better said is catholics are in a grave state of denial of what their church really teaches.
Idolatry, no matter how a catholic might frame it...is just that.... and as God has said..those who practice this become like the idols they worship...blind and can't hear. So it is perfectly understandable why catholics cannot see the truth. Thus it is an easy thing for them to justify to themselves what they do....So don't those who live together before marriage...or have sex before marriage and then wonder why they run into magnifold problems thereafter. They are unwilling to give up the relationship...and it is most difficult to turn it around and do it right. So too catholics cannnot let go of the relationship with their church...and the church will not let go easily either. It has it's members bound.
Until the idolatry is put away, which they have brought into the church, along with the goddess worship of Mary they will not see the truth. Rather a fearful judgment of God to come...if not already happening and I think it has in recent years been revealed as so.
Christ nor God records anything whatsoever making her Queen. There is no scripture to support that at all. It is something which Rome determined and fed it’s members...years ago...and remains entrenched today...and may be why the catholic church is having the difficulties they are...you cannot serve God and an Idol.
Can a catholic actually speak at length about Christ Jesus without mentioning Mary? Can they say a Prayer centered on Christ Jesus apart from mentiong someone departed?
What they might believe and what is actually spoken, written, and practiced are two different things. They do tend to pick and choose what they adhere to regardless of Rome. Nancy Pelosi comes to mind and those like her who are plentiful within the catholic church.
“Especially as Jesus has a brother, James.”
Where were you during the last 789,654,485,334,565 rebuttals of that, right here on FR?
For Heaven’s sake, GET IT ALREADY.
You might start by asking a Catholic; to ask what's-his-name is rather like seeking from Hamas the reason why Jews cling so fiercely to Israel.
We hold so fiercely to Mary because we appreciate so much more than the "anti-Mariolatry" crowd the greatness of Divinity, the quite astounding Mystery of God, the Most High, the Lord of Hosts, the Creator of all, becoming Incarnate in the womb of a Virgin; the "anti-Mariolatry" crowd -- whether they realize it or not -- reduce Christ to someone whose entire importance relies on His functional value to them (this "functional value" thing appears elsewhere in their thought too, but I digress).
To denigrate the human locus of the Miracle of the Incarnation with the truculent "I'm every bit as good as she is!" is vulgar, to say the least, and it denigrates the Incarnation itself.
Several claim (was it on this thread?) that God chose Mary because "she fulfills the prophecy," which lots of girls at the time could have done, as if God stumbled upon a prophecy independent of Him, made by someone else, but by which He is unaccountably bound, as if the God who, as they claim, had every detail of His Plan of Salvation worked out from all eternity, somehow overlooked planning and preparing a suitable vessel from all eternity and had to scrabble around at the last minute to find someone to answer His "help wanted" ad!
Some are unwilling to answer whether they believe Christ is God; some say they do, but their "God" seems awfully small.
I think it all comes down to Mary’s fiat and free will.
There are some on these boards who absolutely deny free will.
Sola scriptura would be a different discussion. As I explained Mary is Queen of Heaven, because her Son is king.
Do you disagree with giving Him that title as well?
Sure; here's one. There are several thousand more:
"Having beheld the resurrection of Christ, let us worship the holy Lord Jesus, the only Sinless One. We venerate Your cross, O Christ, and we praise and glorify Your holy resurrection. You are our God. We know no other than You, and we call upon Your name. Come, all faithful, let us venerate the holy resurrection of Christ. For behold, through the cross joy has come to all the world. Blessing the Lord always, let us praise His resurrection. For enduring the cross for us, he destroyed death by death. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Your great mercy; and according to the multitude of Your compassion, blot out my transgression. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my iniquity, and my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done evil in Your sight, that You may be found just when You speak, and victorious when You are judged. For behold, I was conceived in iniquity, and in sin my mother bore me. For behold, You have loved truth; You have made known to me the secret and hidden thing of Your wisdom. you shall sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be made clean; You shall wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, that the afflicted bones may rejoice. Turn Your face away from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Cast me not away from Your presence, and take not Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and establish me with Your governing Spirit. I shall teach transgressors Your ways, and the ungodly shall turn back to You. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue shall joyfully declare Your righteousness. Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall proclaim Your praise. For if You had desired sacrifice, I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; God will not despise a broken and a humbled heart. Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion; and let the walls of Jerusalem be built. Then You shall be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole burnt offerings. Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar."
Here is my particular favorite:
"Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ του Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν."
Otherwise:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I can say now why would I ask a catholic? But I did do just that in the beginning, finding there answers were anything but adequate...most don't know why. Those who do varied so in the history and or reasoning's about it that it was a fruitless cause....so I went to the Vatican...it is there the RC teachings are clearly shown...and equally as much writings of the Popes... for they do set the tempo of what is to be believed indirectly and directly. The dogma's there and all anyone might need to know what catholics are suppose to believe.
I believe there are various reasons catholics hold to Mary and various degrees of worship of her. But your Popes do set the pace and example...of which the members follow.
I would suppose to a catholic I am now part of the anti-mary crowd. For I do believe how she is portrayed in the catholic faith is indeed idolatry...and completely so.
In my Christian walk I have not spent a great deal of time looking at Mary when it comes to the Birth of our Savior. Rather on His coming and what that means to every individual. Equally as much His life and mission which followed. Yes, that God became a man is astounding and has often humbled me....that Mary was selected was an event which played out in the role of His birth...is pretty much enough for me...even after investigating further.
You see the old test. spoke all the way thru it that the Savior would be coming....it's about Him...very little mentioned of Mary...in fact her name wasn't mentioned..But his was. His birth was a fulfillment of all that was written...and that is cause for greatest of celebration over Mary's role...though she is certainly honored by God at that time...she was far far more humble than those who lay claim to her worship today...and would no doubt cringe for those who have exalted her above her son...and they have and they do.
God gave the son His Kingship...He did not give Mary a royal position, the catholic church did, nothing recorded as such in scripture. He gave Mary the privledge of being His mother...but more importantly that He came from the Father ......
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