Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
No sacrifice or penance on our part can remove our sins or make us more holy. Jesus has done everything. His perfect life fulfilled God’s law in our place. His death paid the price for sin’s penalty. He sent his own Spirit to baptize us into his family and dress us up for eternity. All of the riches of God’s free grace and salvation are given freely to the soul who clings to Jesus in simple trust!
The bridge works both ways.
Christ is fully God and fully Man. When you are drowning, you need someone with their feet firmly on the other bank. You need God.
Christ before the incarnation was fully God, but he needed to become Fully Man, the same as Adam. Hence the miracle of the incarnation, where he became exactly this, the new Adam.
This is why it couldn’t be Mary, because Mary is not God.
“Why couldn’t God preserve himself from sin by being born of Mary.”
He could have taken on the likeness of Man, but it wouldn’t be the same thing. He had to take the flesh and be reformed of the flesh while he is in his mother’s womb. This means he no longer has control over the process once it’s started.
As I said, you submit to yourself.
I've been working on this problem for 20 years, so a quick reply is not necessary. Just think about what you are really saying here.
” This means he no longer has control over the process once it’s started.”
Sad. It’s very sad that you don’t believe in an all-powerful, sovereign, omnipotent God. Ben, God was, is, and never will be “out of control” over anything. He can do anything. Including being born of a virgin—a frail, human, sinful person just as in need of salvation as you or I.
Hoss
>> You’ve just denied that Christ was sinless.<<
No, I didn’t say that. I said “He carried our sin” by being born of Mary. Yet He remained sinless.
1 Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Actually, Ben, Cynical did not deny Christ’s sinlessness; you’re putting words in mouths. Please read more closely.
Hoss
“No one knows the hour or the day, except for the Father.”
Yeah, I believe that God is omnipotent. I also believe he can freely choose to set aside that omnipotence. Christ chose to submit to death on the cross. Chose to submit to the indignities he suffered, chose to set down control to redeem man.
You did deny that Christ was sinless, because you said he was tainted by original sin.
No, how can he be sinless if he’s tainted with original sin.
Original sin, means that he has sin in him, and that’s wrong.
Christ was sinless and free of original sin. This is basic Christology. Really basic stuff.
With God Almighty. In his presence. The New Heavens and New Earth will be real too.
Read your Bible. Remember, “for today you will be with me in Paradise”? Was Jesus lying? How about taking HIS word for it? Isn’t God’s word sufficient?
Hoss
Please quote me where I said ANY such thing!!! Now you’re stretching; be careful, now. Show me my WORDS.
Hoss
I think you’re mixing up who said what!
Hoss
It's there...Head out towards the North Star...Keep going til you get to the 3rd heaven...But watch out for the Dragons as you pass thru the sea...
It doesn't say that in the scripture that I read...
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It says 'saved; yet so as by fire'...Not even saved by fire but saved as by fire...
The works get burned, not the man...No purgatory...
Does scripture cite a duration for purgatory? What sense does a ‘day’ mean in heaven?
NIV has it as:
“If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.”
There are no manuscripts to back up the NIV...The NIV is a commentary on the bible...
First you accuse me of getting Cynical Bear’s statement wrong then you.
From what I can see, you are both making a distinction between original sin and sins committed. Apparently your definition of ‘sinless’ means that you can have original sin. Which is wrong.
Sinless means just that free from sins committed and free from original sin.
You have two choices. One denying that Christ was sinless or, accepting that Christ made Mary sinless. Those are the only choices. One is wrong because Christ was sinless. I suppose you could argue that Christ really wasn’t born of Mary, but that runs into other problems.
BTW, I raise this issue because Menno Simons struggled with it himself. His answer was to deny that Christ was born of Mary, because if Mary was a sinner than so was Christ. He understood why Mary had to be sinless, but rather than acknowledge that the Church was right, he chose to deny one of the core teachings of Christianity.
I know this is a tough question, this is one that took me about a year to work on. I’m telling you, the only way that works is if Mary is sinless.
Fine, argue that with the other Prots.
YET AGAIN
WHAT THOROUGHLY WRONG assertions.
Of course Christ became flesh . . . and in Mary’s womb.
As He would have if God had raised up a rock to be a virgin descendant of David.
CHRIST ALONE CONQUERED DEATH, HELL AND THE GRAVE. Mary’s job was long past.
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