Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary

Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

[marshmallow]

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.

[BenKenobi]

What if Jesus preserved her from sin?

[Iscool]

That would mean that Mary could not have been without sin or Jesus would not have been able to carry our sin for us!

Exactly...Jesus could not have been tempted by sin unless he had the same nature as everyone else on the planet...

[BenKenobi]

Umm ok.

So I’m a convert *because* I take the Catholic faith without questioning?

Excellent deduction Watkins! We’ll have the case cracked in no time!

[Iscool]

If Christ got a fully sinful human nature, from his fully sinful mother then how could he be without sin?

Because his father is/was God...Jesus in the flesh had the proclivity to sin...Had he not, he wouldn't have been fully man...Jesus would have been God just walking around with a covering made of flesh instead of a sheet...

[HossB86]

“WOW, you know this for a fact....despite learned theologins throughout the ages disagreeing with you. I sure wish I had your insight into how God does things”

I know it for a fact because that’s what Scripture says —not what I say— and Scripture is God-breathed. As for learned theologians, well, they’re no doubt Roman Catholic, no? Other learned theologians are no doubt against this too, right?

“but why would God have chosen a soiled vessel to house his Begotten Son...”

Why not? Is God not almighty? Is he not sovereign? Do you believe he was incapable of using a “soiled vessel” and yet remain sinless? Do you think God to be incapable of that?

I don’t. God can do anything.

Hoss

[Iscool]

To modify your closing that "the rest is faith", I would say that it is all faith.

I would say not...After spending considerable time in the book, I will say that once you realize that those are the words of God that you are reading, you notice that there is something very unusual about that book...

There's something spiritual going on in that book...

[BenKenobi]

“Actually, it says nothing of the sort. Binding on earth/binding in heaven is FAR different from giving earthly priests, (sinful, fallen me just as the rest of us) the ability to forgive sins — which, by the way, is the SOLE purview of God Almighty.”

A gift which Christ granted to the Apostles, the power to forgive sins. This is what binding and loosing means.

“It doesn’t say a thing about having to go to “purgatory” to have the testing done.”

What do you think purgatory means? To cleanse by fire.

[BenKenobi]

Then he wasn’t sinless because he suffered from Original Sin. Adam’s curse.

[HossB86]

Okay—following your logic : if he did, then why did he have to come and die? If God required someone sinless to pay the price for us all, Mary could have been that person, right?? She could have died for our sins.

Let me ask you: why couldn’t God preserve himself from sin by being born of Mary—a sinful human like us—is he unable to do that? Is not God truly almighty and able to do whatever he pleases? If so, why couldn’t he use Mary, warts and all??

Hoss

[boatbums]

I appreciate your reply. When I make comments on these types of threads, I have often used the word Protestant but I usually put it in quotes, as "Protestant". I do this for the same reason you do, I do not consider myself anything but a Christian who follows the Bible and the truths it contains. When asked my "religion" on forms, I always answer Christian.

I may read denominational literature about the faith but, because of the Holy Spirit's presence in me and a constant study of Scriptures, I usually know whether or not the teaching is Biblical. It has the "smack of truth" or I sense something is off, it doesn't sound right. Now some people will mock me saying this, thinking I am boasting or depending upon my own personal interpretation of Scripture, but I think you may agree that it is definitely NOT what we are saying. Jesus said he would send the comforter, the Holy Spirit, and he would lead us to all truth. I do not think it was only meant for an elite few, but for all who belong to God through faith in Jesus Christ. So like you said, there were many people outside of denominational divisions and were simply born-again Christians.

If more people studied the Word in a prayerful and humble way, allowing the Holy Spirit within them to illuminate the truths of God's Word, they could avoid much of the false teaching that is out in the world today. If Christians assembled together with those of like mind and hungered together for the truth, God would lead them to it. Pastors and evangelists are great, don't get me wrong, and God uses them in mighty ways, but we must all be responsible for learning the Word and not just swallowing whatever we are fed by others. We are to search the Scriptures to know that what we are told is true or not.

[Iscool]

Nor do I. Neither do I have a problem believing that Mary was forgiven in advance of her Original Sin. I am quite confident God could accomplish that if He so desired.

And I have no problem believing Jesus rode around Israel in a red Ford Mustang wearing a pair of Ray Bans while sporting a Fedora...I have every confidence that God could have accomplished that as well...

[Cvengr]

I concur with your analysis.

I also find it much more complementary of Mary to recognize her as a human sinner with an old sin nature, whom God still found to be appropriate to fully bless as the mother of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Those who swear she was sinless and the Mother of God, will find themselves trapped into also labeling her as the Whore of God come judgment day if it be revealed she ever had sexual relations with her husband Joseph.

Of course those who do not so worship her, can fully accept her having been fully blessed by God to be the mother of Christ Jesus and still be a woman married to Joseph who later bore him many children.

After Adam, we all fall into a category of sinners. If there are humans who do not, then there are far larger theological issues to consider, namely the possible loss of salvation for all other sinners who rely only upon Christ for salvation, rather than obedience to the Law.

The Marion worship is far more deceptive than it appears to simply be an adoration of innocence.

[narses]

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

[aposiopetic]

Scripture was defined from the many competing books by the very Tradition and Apostolic Succession denied by Protestants as being non-Biblical.

I believe the obligatory "crickets chirping" is in order, as, for some reason, there have been no comments in response.

[John Leland 1789]

Yours is the expected Roman Catholic revisionist reply. Not impressive. It only sees history as revised and approved to prop up Vaticanism. We do understand that it comes from the ridiculous fallacy of Catholicism beginning in Matthew 16:13-19, a teaching designed to say that there was nothing but Catholicism from the beginning of Christianity.

Yeah, we already know. We know. Yeah, ...uhhuh, we know. We've heard it all——Vatican approved revisionist history. It takes a lot of very fancy medieval art work caricaturizing truth and history.

[boatbums]

Then he wasn’t sinless because he suffered from Original Sin. Adam’s curse.

Or maybe what some people are taught about "Original Sin", as separate from "Adam's Curse", is not really true.

[Iscool]

3.2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”

Likely this was added to at least partially by a forger since it goes against the grain of other of Irenaeus' writing...AND, it doesn't line up with known scripture...

The 'church' was not founded at Rome...The church was founded in Jerusalem...And Christians were first named at Antioch...

For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere

Interesting that Iranaeus acknowledges that there were 'other' churches outside of Rome...AND, that churches are 'the faithful', and not faithful to the Catholic religion...

[HossB86]

I don’t know what purgatory means because scripture doesn’t define it; the Roman Catholic Church does.

Re-read my post regarding being absent in the body. Also, as another poster pointed out, Jesus didn’t tell the thief that he was going to purgatory for a bit to get toasty and then he would see him later—

Hoss.

[Iscool]

For me personally it was this realization that brought me over. I eventually came to the conclusion that while there were things to which I disagreed, that Christ himself wanted us to be together, and it was up to me to figure this out. The conversion had to be me going to the Catholic church.

I agree but from reading the scriptures and believing them, the conversion has to be the conversion of the Catholic religion

[Iscool]

Thanks for the excellent post...

I generally refer to myself as non-Catholic as opposed to Protestant but I do slip up occasionally....