Posted on 12/16/2010 12:39:28 PM PST by marshmallow
Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not," Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that does good." God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it—some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of thatgood counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.
3. For this reason the Lord also said, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16 And, "Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares." Luke 21:34 And, "Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and you like men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He comes and knocks, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He comes, shall find so doing." Luke 12:35-36 And again, "The servant who knows his Lord's will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes." Luke 12:47 And, "Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 And again, "But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delays, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites." Luke 12:45-46; Matthew 24:48-51 All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, "All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;" 1 Corinthians 6:12 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect "all things are lawful," God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] "not expedient" pointing out that we "should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness," 1 Peter 2:16 for this is not expedient. And again he says, "Speak every man truth with his neighbour." Ephesians 4:25 And, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks." Ephesians 4:29 And, "For you were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but you have been washed, but you have been sanctified in the name of our Lord." 1 Corinthians 6:11 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, "According to your faith be it unto you;" Matthew 9:29 thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, "All things are possible to him that believes;" Mark 9:23 and, "Go your way; and as you have believed, so be it done unto you." Matthew 8:13 Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, "he that believes in Him has eternal life while he who believes not the Son has not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him." John 3:36 In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, "How often have I wished to gather your children together, as a hen [gathers] her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:37-38
6. Those, again, who maintain the opposite to these [conclusions], do themselves present the Lord as destitute of power, as if, forsooth, He were unable to accomplish what He willed; or, on the other hand, as being ignorant that they were by nature "material," as these men express it, and such as cannot receive His immortality. "But He should not," say they, "have created angels of such a nature that they were capable of transgression, nor men who immediately proved ungrateful towards Him; for they were made rational beings, endowed with the power of examining and judging, and were not [formed] as things irrational or of a [merely] animal nature, which can do nothing of their own will, but are drawn by necessity and compulsion to what is good, in which things there is one mind and one usage, working mechanically in one groove (inflexibiles et sine judicio), who are incapable of being anything else except just what they had been created." But upon this supposition, neither would what is good be grateful to them, nor communion with God be precious, nor would the good be very much to be sought after, which would present itself without their own proper endeavour, care, or study, but would be implanted of its own accord and without their concern. Thus it would come to pass, that their beinggood would be of no consequence, because they were so by nature rather than by will, and are possessors of good spontaneously, not by choice; and for this reason they would not understand this fact, that good is a comely thing, nor would they take pleasure in it. For how can those who are ignorant of good enjoy it? Or what credit is it to those who have not aimed at it? And what crown is it to those who have not followed in pursuit of it, like those victorious in the contest?
7. On this account, too, did the Lord assert that the kingdom of heaven was the portion of "the violent;" and He says, "The violent take it by force;" Matthew 11:12 that is, those who by strength and earnest striving are on the watch to snatch it away on the moment. On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, "Do you not know, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest istemperate in all things: now these men [do it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as one beating the air; but I make my bodylivid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway. " 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam). And the harder we strive, so much is it the more valuable; while so much the more valuable it is, so much the more should we esteem it. And indeed those things are not esteemed so highly which come spontaneously, as those which are reached by much anxious care. Since, then, this power has been conferred upon us, both the Lord has taught and the apostle has enjoined us the more to love God, that we may reach this [prize] for ourselves by striving after it. For otherwise, no doubt, this our good would be [virtually] irrational, because not the result of trial. Moreover, the faculty of seeing would not appear to be so desirable, unless we had known what a loss it were to be devoid of sight; and health, too, is rendered all the more estimable by an acquaintance with disease; light, also, by contrasting it with darkness; and life with death. Just in the same way is the heavenly kingdom honourable to those who have known the earthly one. But in proportion as it is more honourable, so much the more do we prize it; and if we have prized it more, we shall be the more glorious in the presence of God. The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for thetime to come, and that, having been rationally taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed long-suffering in the case of man's apostasy; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, "Your own apostasy shall heal you;" Jeremiah 2:19 God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God.
Again, I refer to the Lord Jesus Christ for the answer to this: John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "
Clearly, again, the action is by the Father. The Lord Jesus Christ says "All", all that the Father gives to Christ "Will" come to Him. Not maybe, not if, the word is "Will".
Now, as for "Irrefutably compels", the Lord Jesus Christ uses the word "Draws" so I would say He "Irrefutably Draws" and believe He does this with His Irresistible Love. John 15:9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love." - the Lord Jesus Christ loves those the Father gives Him just as "the Father has loved Me". This is an Irresistible draw.
The problem for most folks is they have a negative view of God as a killjoy or capricious. But when you put these verses as frontlets before your eyes, great joy follows in the heart of a believer.
Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power
Compulsion-a force that compels
Without Compulsion - without a force that compels
We, of course, have to excuse Irenaeus since the Church would not condemn the Pelagius heresy for another 300 years. Many of the early fathers were more interested in trying to get the church to grow rather than putting together a systematic view of scripture.
But the Divine aid is not compulsion in the eyes of the Church from Apostolic times. How do you account for that? It has nothing to do with a systematic view of Scripture.
Paul was a chosen vessel, and was doing his own free will on his way to Damascus when he got a face to face visit. Paul did not ask for this interruption in doing his will, but after this Heavenly visit, Paul ended up writing the majority of what is called the New Testament. And over and over Paul says there are some that were chosen/elected before the foundation (verb that means casting down/overthrow of the first rebel) of this heaven/earth age.
Paul earned his grace and election because he stood against the first rebel when the first rebel decided he was ‘god’ and drew a third of the sons of God into his rebellion.
The scriptures states that God brings us to repentence:
If God gives us faith, repentance, and wisdom, then what is left? And we know that God does not grant faith, repentance and wisdom to everyone.
As far as God is sovereign and that we are responsible-it really isn't a mystery. We are in bondage until God opens our ears and eyes to see the things that are of God. It is because of Christ that we can say that we once were blind but now we see.
Yes and yes. Faith is partly up to us, and we have the power to deny it. Sin -- the reality of which is amply demonstrated by Scripture -- is us turning away from God. If we have the power to turn away, we obviously have the power to turn to Him, as well.
I suppose one could argue that sin is God's will, but that seems a bit strange.
Very good, HD. Even you are beginning to realize the "systematic view" of the scripture is something man-made. The scriptures had to be intentionally "harmonized" to show "internal consistency."
Irenaeus is credited for many things, mostly his fight against the Gnostic competitors. He is also credited with the re-incorporation of the Old Testament after a period where it was mostly ignored or minimized, because it didn't "fit" the Christian beliefs and because the Christians were not positively disposed towards the Jews. But he realized that without a heavily Christianized OT interpretation the New Testament is without a power base.
He also is credited for calling Eve the advocata, which when retro-translated into Greek reads Paraclete (the Holy Spirit)! Of course, the earliest surviving copy of Irenaeus' work exists only in a Latin translation form Greek, written a hundred years after Irenaeus, and possibly doctrinally "adjusted."
Irenaeus is also credited for "revealing" that Jesus was at least 50 years old when he was crucified (Ver. haer., II, 22.), so his views on whether man can save himself or not are really not so scandalous relatively speaking, considering what else he is credited for.
The Church believes that God enables men to be believe and then be saved. However, man has some responsibility in the matter. You give us snippets of Paul and we will reply with the words of Christ:
Matthew 7: 1 1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Salvation is given by God conditionally. It is not unconditional to some and unavailable to the rest of humanity.
As far as God is sovereign and that we are responsible-it really isn't a mystery. We are in bondage until God opens our ears and eyes to see the things that are of God. It is because of Christ that we can say that we once were blind but now we see.
The grace of God is given to all:
Matthew 5: 43 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29 48 So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
It is what you do with that Grace that you are Judged upon:
Luke 12: 35 8 "Gird your loins and light your lamps 36 and be like servants who await their master's return from a wedding, ready to open immediately when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds vigilant on his arrival. Amen, I say to you, he will gird himself, have them recline at table, and proceed to wait on them. 38 And should he come in the second or third watch and find them prepared in this way, blessed are those servants. 39 Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come." 41 Then Peter said, "Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone?" 42 And the Lord replied, "Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute (the) food allowance at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' 9 and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 then that servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful. 47 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; 48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
We are all servants of God. Those who know of Him are required to act in a responsible manner - all Christians, in other words. This passage describes all men and the consequences of each of their actions (or inactions). Those in a position of authority (the stewards and bishops of Christ) who abuse their authority will come into special punishment - hence the saying that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.
If we could actually deny God, then God would no longer be sovereign. I find Protestants to be confused by two events. One is their salvation. Scripture tells us that the Son must set us free and, if we are freed then we will be free indeed. Now one has to ask what precisely are we being set free from-especially if we have it within our power to free ourselves? What does the Holy Spirit do?
The second event is after we become Christians. While we certainly now are free to choose to follow God or follow our own ways, what is the purpose of God "chastening" us. Why wasn't Jonah free to go to Tarshish or Paul to Damascus?
Some Christians seem to think in terms of either-or. "If God allows sin then He must be the author of it." Rather think of it that God does all good things and uses evil to effect His perfect plan. Everything evil could be gone in the blink of an eye if God so ordained it. However, if one views God as using the evil in this universe to carry out His perfect and righteous plan, then we know that all things work together for our good. Every thing that is evil that comes into our lives is allowed by God simply because it benefits and blesses us.
Iraeneus, as most early church fathers, came out of a pagan culture into the light. For over three hundred years the church fathers struggled with putting together a systematic view as revealed in the Old and New Testament. It isn't a "man-made" view but a view of people trying to understand the very nature of God as He has revealed Himself to us. Iraeneus didn't "Christianized" the Old Testament. Rather he tried to understand the nature of God throught the inspired word of God in the Old Testament and what had just been revealed in the New. You could say the Jews failed to update their scriptures.
As far as what Irenaeus wrote, many of the early fathers came from pagan cultures or had personal opinions on matters. Some of them had some pretty wacky ideas. But these writings are not considered "inspired" as scripture is inspired. They are filled with errors and misinterpretation of scripture. Many of these people were evangalists-not theologians. So one has to look upon their writings from that context.
How do you do it? How do you actually put God in a nice neat little box like that?
He's not a genie for you to figure out.
Some Christians seem to think in terms of either-or.
Pot--meet kettle.
SA-How do you do it? How do you actually put God in a nice neat little box like that?
Honestly, don't words mean anything anymore? What is specifically the meaning of sovereign?
You make the claim that "I" put God in a "nice neat little box" by stating that He is God and He will do as He so pleases. This is states this many, many times in the Old and New Testaments. You can certainly read the Psalms. Yet, "I'm" the one trying to put God in a box.
There is NOTHING in scripture that even suggest God has given up His rule and authority. In fact it states that all authority has been handed over to Christ. It may be best to work from that "box".
What I have posted has not be "snippets" of Paul. There are verses after verses in scripture that tells us that we are "the elect", "the chosen", we've been "predestined before the foundations of the world", etc. Our Lord Himself said, "No once can come to the me unless the Father draws him", or "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME BUT I CHOSE YOU." What people are doing is nothing more than directly contradicting our Lord Jesus. These are certainly not "snippets". People just can't put their theology in order.
As far as judging, there is nothing for me to judge. I'm simply parroting scripture. What people decide to do with it I don't know. However, a person cannot have a high view of scripture unless they take all scripture within context.
Salvation is given by God conditionally. It is not unconditional to some and unavailable to the rest of humanity.
There are no conditions to the grace of God. God calls all men to Himself. All men reject that calling. You can't place a condition on a free gift otherwise it's not free.
God keeps calling. Man keeps rejecting. God keeps calling. Man keeps rejecting. I don't know how God can possibly deal with the frustration.
The fact is, if God is going to save anyone then He has to make a special effort. This is no different then God appearing to Paul on the road, walking up to Peter and saying follow me, appearing in a burning bush to Moses, telling Hannah that Samuel will be a godly man, etc.
God works the same way in these lives as He does in ours. I would suggest that every Christian here would say that it was God who worked in their life to bring them to salvation. But yet we turn around and say that we have a choice. What that really illustrates is the sinfulness and ungratefulness of our nature.
Sovereign does not mean that He controls our will. It does mean that He is able to be in complete control in spite of our will.
That is non-Scriptural.
SA-That is non-Scriptural.
Left to our own devices we will not come to God.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
You knew that, though, and still used them.
Yet if you want something clearer, then I would suggest the following:
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
We always chose our own way. It is because of our behavior that our Lord suffered.
How do you explain the Prodigal Son's turning back to his Father on his own?
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