Posted on 12/16/2010 12:39:28 PM PST by marshmallow
Again, I refer to the Lord Jesus Christ for the answer to this: John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "
Clearly, again, the action is by the Father. The Lord Jesus Christ says "All", all that the Father gives to Christ "Will" come to Him. Not maybe, not if, the word is "Will".
Now, as for "Irrefutably compels", the Lord Jesus Christ uses the word "Draws" so I would say He "Irrefutably Draws" and believe He does this with His Irresistible Love. John 15:9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love." - the Lord Jesus Christ loves those the Father gives Him just as "the Father has loved Me". This is an Irresistible draw.
The problem for most folks is they have a negative view of God as a killjoy or capricious. But when you put these verses as frontlets before your eyes, great joy follows in the heart of a believer.
Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power
Compulsion-a force that compels
Without Compulsion - without a force that compels
We, of course, have to excuse Irenaeus since the Church would not condemn the Pelagius heresy for another 300 years. Many of the early fathers were more interested in trying to get the church to grow rather than putting together a systematic view of scripture.
But the Divine aid is not compulsion in the eyes of the Church from Apostolic times. How do you account for that? It has nothing to do with a systematic view of Scripture.
Paul was a chosen vessel, and was doing his own free will on his way to Damascus when he got a face to face visit. Paul did not ask for this interruption in doing his will, but after this Heavenly visit, Paul ended up writing the majority of what is called the New Testament. And over and over Paul says there are some that were chosen/elected before the foundation (verb that means casting down/overthrow of the first rebel) of this heaven/earth age.
Paul earned his grace and election because he stood against the first rebel when the first rebel decided he was ‘god’ and drew a third of the sons of God into his rebellion.
The scriptures states that God brings us to repentence:
If God gives us faith, repentance, and wisdom, then what is left? And we know that God does not grant faith, repentance and wisdom to everyone.
As far as God is sovereign and that we are responsible-it really isn't a mystery. We are in bondage until God opens our ears and eyes to see the things that are of God. It is because of Christ that we can say that we once were blind but now we see.
Yes and yes. Faith is partly up to us, and we have the power to deny it. Sin -- the reality of which is amply demonstrated by Scripture -- is us turning away from God. If we have the power to turn away, we obviously have the power to turn to Him, as well.
I suppose one could argue that sin is God's will, but that seems a bit strange.
Very good, HD. Even you are beginning to realize the "systematic view" of the scripture is something man-made. The scriptures had to be intentionally "harmonized" to show "internal consistency."
Irenaeus is credited for many things, mostly his fight against the Gnostic competitors. He is also credited with the re-incorporation of the Old Testament after a period where it was mostly ignored or minimized, because it didn't "fit" the Christian beliefs and because the Christians were not positively disposed towards the Jews. But he realized that without a heavily Christianized OT interpretation the New Testament is without a power base.
He also is credited for calling Eve the advocata, which when retro-translated into Greek reads Paraclete (the Holy Spirit)! Of course, the earliest surviving copy of Irenaeus' work exists only in a Latin translation form Greek, written a hundred years after Irenaeus, and possibly doctrinally "adjusted."
Irenaeus is also credited for "revealing" that Jesus was at least 50 years old when he was crucified (Ver. haer., II, 22.), so his views on whether man can save himself or not are really not so scandalous relatively speaking, considering what else he is credited for.
The Church believes that God enables men to be believe and then be saved. However, man has some responsibility in the matter. You give us snippets of Paul and we will reply with the words of Christ:
Matthew 7: 1 1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Salvation is given by God conditionally. It is not unconditional to some and unavailable to the rest of humanity.
As far as God is sovereign and that we are responsible-it really isn't a mystery. We are in bondage until God opens our ears and eyes to see the things that are of God. It is because of Christ that we can say that we once were blind but now we see.
The grace of God is given to all:
Matthew 5: 43 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29 48 So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
It is what you do with that Grace that you are Judged upon:
Luke 12: 35 8 "Gird your loins and light your lamps 36 and be like servants who await their master's return from a wedding, ready to open immediately when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds vigilant on his arrival. Amen, I say to you, he will gird himself, have them recline at table, and proceed to wait on them. 38 And should he come in the second or third watch and find them prepared in this way, blessed are those servants. 39 Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come." 41 Then Peter said, "Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone?" 42 And the Lord replied, "Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute (the) food allowance at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' 9 and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 then that servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful. 47 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; 48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
We are all servants of God. Those who know of Him are required to act in a responsible manner - all Christians, in other words. This passage describes all men and the consequences of each of their actions (or inactions). Those in a position of authority (the stewards and bishops of Christ) who abuse their authority will come into special punishment - hence the saying that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.
If we could actually deny God, then God would no longer be sovereign. I find Protestants to be confused by two events. One is their salvation. Scripture tells us that the Son must set us free and, if we are freed then we will be free indeed. Now one has to ask what precisely are we being set free from-especially if we have it within our power to free ourselves? What does the Holy Spirit do?
The second event is after we become Christians. While we certainly now are free to choose to follow God or follow our own ways, what is the purpose of God "chastening" us. Why wasn't Jonah free to go to Tarshish or Paul to Damascus?
Some Christians seem to think in terms of either-or. "If God allows sin then He must be the author of it." Rather think of it that God does all good things and uses evil to effect His perfect plan. Everything evil could be gone in the blink of an eye if God so ordained it. However, if one views God as using the evil in this universe to carry out His perfect and righteous plan, then we know that all things work together for our good. Every thing that is evil that comes into our lives is allowed by God simply because it benefits and blesses us.
Iraeneus, as most early church fathers, came out of a pagan culture into the light. For over three hundred years the church fathers struggled with putting together a systematic view as revealed in the Old and New Testament. It isn't a "man-made" view but a view of people trying to understand the very nature of God as He has revealed Himself to us. Iraeneus didn't "Christianized" the Old Testament. Rather he tried to understand the nature of God throught the inspired word of God in the Old Testament and what had just been revealed in the New. You could say the Jews failed to update their scriptures.
As far as what Irenaeus wrote, many of the early fathers came from pagan cultures or had personal opinions on matters. Some of them had some pretty wacky ideas. But these writings are not considered "inspired" as scripture is inspired. They are filled with errors and misinterpretation of scripture. Many of these people were evangalists-not theologians. So one has to look upon their writings from that context.
How do you do it? How do you actually put God in a nice neat little box like that?
He's not a genie for you to figure out.
Some Christians seem to think in terms of either-or.
Pot--meet kettle.
SA-How do you do it? How do you actually put God in a nice neat little box like that?
Honestly, don't words mean anything anymore? What is specifically the meaning of sovereign?
You make the claim that "I" put God in a "nice neat little box" by stating that He is God and He will do as He so pleases. This is states this many, many times in the Old and New Testaments. You can certainly read the Psalms. Yet, "I'm" the one trying to put God in a box.
There is NOTHING in scripture that even suggest God has given up His rule and authority. In fact it states that all authority has been handed over to Christ. It may be best to work from that "box".
What I have posted has not be "snippets" of Paul. There are verses after verses in scripture that tells us that we are "the elect", "the chosen", we've been "predestined before the foundations of the world", etc. Our Lord Himself said, "No once can come to the me unless the Father draws him", or "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME BUT I CHOSE YOU." What people are doing is nothing more than directly contradicting our Lord Jesus. These are certainly not "snippets". People just can't put their theology in order.
As far as judging, there is nothing for me to judge. I'm simply parroting scripture. What people decide to do with it I don't know. However, a person cannot have a high view of scripture unless they take all scripture within context.
Salvation is given by God conditionally. It is not unconditional to some and unavailable to the rest of humanity.
There are no conditions to the grace of God. God calls all men to Himself. All men reject that calling. You can't place a condition on a free gift otherwise it's not free.
God keeps calling. Man keeps rejecting. God keeps calling. Man keeps rejecting. I don't know how God can possibly deal with the frustration.
The fact is, if God is going to save anyone then He has to make a special effort. This is no different then God appearing to Paul on the road, walking up to Peter and saying follow me, appearing in a burning bush to Moses, telling Hannah that Samuel will be a godly man, etc.
God works the same way in these lives as He does in ours. I would suggest that every Christian here would say that it was God who worked in their life to bring them to salvation. But yet we turn around and say that we have a choice. What that really illustrates is the sinfulness and ungratefulness of our nature.
Sovereign does not mean that He controls our will. It does mean that He is able to be in complete control in spite of our will.
That is non-Scriptural.
SA-That is non-Scriptural.
Left to our own devices we will not come to God.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
You knew that, though, and still used them.
Yet if you want something clearer, then I would suggest the following:
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
We always chose our own way. It is because of our behavior that our Lord suffered.
How do you explain the Prodigal Son's turning back to his Father on his own?
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