St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; ...

Which of the following excellent examples of truth and credible evidence offered by A-G do you consider false?

I believe the root of the problem is in the Hebrew word nephilim which means "giant" and occurs in Genesis 6:4 in reference to the offspring of the Watcher-angels and mortal women and again in Numbers 13:33 in reference to Goliath and family.

Some assume that this means the offspring of the Watcher-angels and mortal women survived the Noah Flood. But they didn't:

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died. - Genesis 7:21-22

As editor-surveyor replied, Enoch says that the offspring physically died in the Noah Flood but their spirits survived and continued to roam the earth as demons.

One of the Enoch manuscripts suggests that the Noah Flood was targeted to the destruction of the Watchers' children and the Watcher's influence on men. The Watchers had taught men such things as weaponry, warfare and cosmetics. In effect, that would entail the destruction of "civilization."

=============

I went back and looked at Angels on Assignment to see if I could find a reference to UFOs and demons or fallen angels. I didn't find any - much to my chagrin.

Evidently I was reading something into his discussion with Michael on page 61 (emphasis mine):

He said "In case you are not aware of it, twenty-four hours a day there is some type of evil force accusing God's people of things he has already forgiven." Satan does not see things the same way God sees them. He knows they are forgiven, but he keeps on accusing them anyway. "But," he said, "The heavens will be swept clean! Lucifer is going to try to fight, but he doesn't have a chance. If you want to read about what is coming, it is found in the twelfth chapter of Revelation, verses seven through ten." (Revelation 12:7-10).

....During the tribulation, the days will be horrible because all of the fallen angels will be on earth. Praise God he is taking us out before this happens.

Michael said, "There will not be a place in all of the vast heavens for even one of those demons, not even one!" He emphasized this and said that it is his assignment, and he is ready to go on it as soon as the day is appointed!

To the human eye, I suspect an angel being cast down to earth would be called an "Unidentified Flying Object." To: grey_whiskers; Quix; MHGinTN; betty boop

Thank you so much for your question, dear brother in Christ!

Since so many people on this thread have come across as against the "teachings of men" and "vain janglings"... by what rule or methodology or authority is it proposed to accept the writings within these two sources as (no pun intended) "kosher"...?

Very often in evangelical circles I have run across various teachings and ideas which claim a scriptural warrant, but when one researches the verse, the idea claimed doesn't necessarily follow directly from the verse as claimed.

How does this differ from the "teachings of men" for which the Catholic Church has been criticized on this thread?

First of all, neither Enoch nor Angels on Assignment are Scripture. Because of my interests, I find them illuminating, but I do not insist that others must pay attention to them.

I have always been interested in "near death experiences" - especially those of children. Pastor Buck died shortly after writing Angels on Assignment and I read it as the insights or visions of a spiritual man nearing the end of his mortal life. The book centers on Christ and radiates his love for Him. He quotes many Scriptures throughout.

I was particularly engaged by the drawing of a tesseract by a visiting angel (Pastor Buck was not a math geek but I am.) The picture (which Buck called a picture frame) is shown in chapter 3.

Angels on Assignment

Another of the many beautiful truths God gave me through the mouth of the angel Gabriel was that everything God has promised is already completed as far as God's book in heaven is concerned. This statement was very difficult for me to understand, so Gabriel took a pencil which I held in my hand, and drew a rough sketch of the picture frame. Webmasters Note: Picture below is from the book.

Everything God has promised is completed in this picture. But, he said, "Here is a tiny little spot representing things unclear to you - things not yet complete. You often spend your time looking at these things until the tiny spot expands outward and fills the frame, and totally hides what God has done. If you look to Jesus instead of the problem, you will see the complete picture." In Is. 43:2 the Lord said, "When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you." If you look at the waters of trouble, it will hide the picture, but if you look to Jesus, that little piece that looks so ominous to you has to shrink back into place and then you will see the whole picture complete with everything that God promised.

The tesseract is the best geometric representation of P.S. Wesson's 5 Dimensions/2 Times theory. Click here for the graphic and introduction to the Space/Time/Matter Consortium.

Like Kaluza/Klein, many geometric physics theories involve the compactification of extra dimensions, e.g. string theories. But Vafa's f-Theory and Wesson's 5D/2T call for additional temporal dimensions. And Wesson's is an expanded model, elegant.

In theories which involve an additional dimension of time, time is not simply an arrow (past>present>future) but can be seen either as a plane or a volume. This means that past, present and future exist concurrently. And it also means that cause>effect can be effect>cause or cause=effect.

I find this interesting because:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13:8

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:4

My interest in Enoch comes from a more general interest in ancient manuscripts. But of all them, Enoch is the most fascinating:

The Book of Enoch (Enoch I) is written for the end times much like Revelation. And like Revelation, it contains a blessing for those who will read it.

The blessing of Enoch; with which he blessed the elect and the righteous who would be present on the day of tribulation at (the time of) the removal of all the ungodly ones. And Enoch, the blessed and righteous man of the Lord, took up (his parable) while his eyes were open and he saw, and said "(This is) a holy vision from the heavens which the angels showed me; and I heard from them everything and I understood. I look not for this generation but for the distant one that is coming. I speak about the elect ones and concerning them. (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Volume I, 1 Enoch)

Also, since Enoch so obviously refers to Christ, it is no wonder the Rabbis rejected it even though it had been in use for many years, e.g. the carbon dating of fragments of copies found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Book of Enoch (also known as 1 Enoch) was once cherished by Jews and Christians alike, this book later fell into disfavor with powerful theologians–precisely because of its controversial statements on the nature and deeds of the fallen angels…

The theme of the Book of Enoch dealing with the nature and deeds of the fallen angels so infuriated the later Church fathers that one, Filastrius, actually condemned it openly as heresy (Filastrius, Liber de Haeresibus, no. 108). Nor did the rabbis deign to give credence to the book’s teaching about angels. Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai in the second century A.D. pronounced a curse upon those who believed it (Delitzsch, p. 223).

So the book was denounced, banned, cursed, no doubt burned and shredded–and last but not least, lost (and conveniently forgotten) for a thousand years. But with an uncanny persistence, the Book of Enoch found its way back into circulation two centuries ago.

In 1773, rumors of a surviving copy of the book drew Scottish explorer James Bruce to distant Ethiopia. True to hearsay, the Book of Enoch had been preserved by the Ethiopic church, which put it right alongside the other books of the Bible…

Though it was once believed to be post-Christian (the similarities to Christian terminology and teaching are striking), recent discoveries of copies of the book among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran prove that the book was in existence before the time of Jesus Christ. But the date of the original writing upon which the second century B.C. Qumran copies were based is shrouded in obscurity. It is, in a word, old…

There is abundant proof that Christ approved of the Book of Enoch. Over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedents in the Book of Enoch.

Another remarkable bit of evidence for the early Christians’ acceptance of the Book of Enoch was for many years buried under the King James Bible’s mistranslation of Luke 9:35, describing the transfiguration of Christ: "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son: hear him." Apparently the translator here wished to make this verse agree with a similar verse in Matthew and Mark. But Luke’s verse in the original Greek reads: "This is my Son, the Elect One (from the Greek ho eklelegmenos, lit., "the elect one"): hear him."

The "Elect One" is a most significant term (found fourteen times) in the Book of Enoch. If the book was indeed known to the apostles of Christ, with its abundant descriptions of the Elect One who should "sit upon the throne of glory" and the Elect One who should "dwell in the midst of them," then the great scriptural authenticity is accorded to the Book of Enoch when the "voice out of the cloud" tells the apostles, "This is my Son, the Elect One"–the one promised in the Book of Enoch.

The Book of Jude tells us in vs. 14 that "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied…" Jude also, in vs. 15, makes a direct reference to the Book of Enoch (2:1), where he writes, "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly…" …

Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)–directly referencing the Enochian writings.

Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.

Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalso–also approved of and supported the Enochian writings…

One by one the arguments against the Book of Enoch fade away. The day may soon arrive when the final complaints about the Book of Enoch’s lack of historicity and "late date" are also silenced by new evidence of the book’s real antiquity.

Introduction

If you are going to study Enoch, I strongly suggest Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha because it includes many scholarly insights, footnotes, the other two Books of Enoch and has the latest translation.

Charlesworth's collection has many other fascinating manuscripts which were familiar to Jews and early Christians. One of these for instance explains events which preceded God calling Abraham. Another explains why Satan was so upset with Job.

Nothing of them "ring true" in my spirit like Enoch does. And no wonder, Enoch is quoted in Jude and 2 Peter - and appears to be referenced around a hundred times throughout the New Testament.

God's Name is I AM.

178 posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 12:01:57 AM by Alamo-Girl

241 posted on 12/20/2011 8:10:51 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Counterfeits must be labeled as such.

Deception is rampant in our era.

You know that on some topics.

242 posted on 12/20/2011 8:13:06 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I’m shocked by your unwarranted harshness and unkindness, BTW.

243 posted on 12/20/2011 8:13:46 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

To: johngrace; Mad Dawg

John, MD, I don’t know if I’m more brittle because of my Dad’s passing or what.

However, some of your cohorts are about to burn whatever last bit of understanding and compassion I have left for the lot of your co-religionists. Your prayers might be good about now.

What is it about so many of them that they feel soooooo justified in being personally assaultive and harsh about differences over BELIEFS, dogma, religious practices, structures, organizations???

Do they fail to realize that Christ died for PEOPLE vs all that STUFF??? Sigh.

244 posted on 12/20/2011 8:26:00 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

!ABSOLUTELY INDEED!

245 posted on 12/20/2011 8:58:06 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

This thread is still going on. Lol! I just woke up from a sleep I am on a tablet writing . Let me catch up. I just read my comment alerts only not the new add ons on this thread. I think we all can act stupid towards one another but if we are real Christians ( 1 John 4) we definitely have to know how to forgive each other. Otherwise remember what are Savior warned after the Lord's Pray.

Freeper Regards!

P.S you just mention your Dad. Sometimes the first year of a loss is the worst grieving part. Although I will always grieve that first year for my Mom, Dad and Brother were just too deep. So I can understand why you brought it up. Luv in Christ!

246 posted on 12/20/2011 11:05:07 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)

“Counterfeits must be labeled as such.”

Yep, this is why you are being called.

Test: What part of the following do you accept:

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

247 posted on 12/20/2011 11:10:48 PM PST by narses

Wow! Thanks for pointing Out. Interesting to say the least.

248 posted on 12/20/2011 11:21:52 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; Quix; Religion Moderator; Jim Robinson

Not all signs/miracles come from God. When Moses was before pharaoh trying to get him to let his people go pharaoh's magicians were able to counterfeit some of his miracles (Exodus 7 and Exodus 8)

In the Old Testament there is a warning about believing signs and false prophets
Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

In the New Testament Jesus himself tells us that there will be false prophets and signs

Mathew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Think about this ... The world does not want to believe that God created the earth in 6 days , nor does the world want to believe that God created man in HIS image . The world goes out of it's way to teach otherwise . Why do you think it would be so far fetched for Satan to use an fake alien invasion to fool people ? Much of the world would fall for it right away because to them it would mean that there is no God .
When you think of it that way it is not so far fetched .

By the way why do Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull ? I have never understood this because the pagans used to depict their goddesses as a moon over the horns of a bull .

249 posted on 12/20/2011 11:51:54 PM PST by Lera

To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; betty boop

Hello.

Quix, what is the core of the contention as you would see it objectively, please, in a sentence or two?

250 posted on 12/21/2011 12:02:46 AM PST by unspun (It's the Sovereignty, Stu... | We are Gulag Bound)

So all miracles are false? Yes to be cautious is wise. But does not dismiss that it can be from God. That image converted 10 million people from pagan killings and other beliefs.

It spoke to their hearts from their former beliefs.

251 posted on 12/21/2011 2:17:42 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)

“As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our sins from us.”

Let’s all relax. The adversary loves to see people all in a dither.

252 posted on 12/21/2011 3:12:51 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)

By the way why do Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull ?

DO Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull?

253 posted on 12/21/2011 4:32:18 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)

Lera:By the way why do Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull ?

Mad Dawg:DO Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull?

Lera:It’s a fair question , look at what she is standing on/between in the picture.
It’s a pair of horns (moon shape) . That’s why I asked why do they depict her that way ? It’s not the first time I have noticed this as I have seen her pictured before like this on other icons/statues . What is the reason for putting her in between these horns /moon shape ?

254 posted on 12/21/2011 6:25:51 AM PST by Lera

Numbers 13:23 (NIV) 23 When they reached the Valley of Eshkol,[a] they cut off a branch bearing a single cluster of grapes. Two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with some pomegranates and figs.

Think outside the box. Why does it take two men to carry a cluster of grapes?

255 posted on 12/21/2011 6:26:55 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)

How does saying not all signs/miracles are from God equate to saying all signs and miracles are false ?

256 posted on 12/21/2011 6:36:01 AM PST by Lera

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

257 posted on 12/21/2011 6:53:00 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)

Looks like she is standing on a devil head?

258 posted on 12/21/2011 6:58:30 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)

Looks like she is standing on a devil head? If you squint your eyes.

259 posted on 12/21/2011 6:59:28 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)

I'd say there's a difference between
"...Catholics depict Mary as sitting between the horns of a bull"
and
"standing"
"horns/moon shape"

"standing on/between"?
Am I "between" the carpet or the floor?

And of course, in the instance of Juan-Diego's tilma we do not attribute the depiction to ourselves.

But in any event,

And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Revelation12:1

260 posted on 12/21/2011 7:05:47 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)

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