Posted on 11/30/2010 9:14:06 AM PST by greyfoxx39
"No longer members of any legally recognized religion, Mormons organized a focus group to re-brand their identity. So they called around to some California railroad lobbyists, New York ad-men, and brainstormed and out-paradigm-shifted a totally innovational re-branding of Mormonism.
"The Trustee thus offered bonds to Eastern bankers with the promised collateral being the Mormons themselves."The Mormon people, you see, had untapped value: a sense of community, a uniquely productive work ethic, and best of all, a built-in propensity to be obedient to authorities.
In this month (June 1829) I was baptized, confirmed, and ordained an Elder in the Church of Christ by Bro. Joseph Smith. Previous to this, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had baptized, confirmed and ordained each other to the office of an Elder in the Church of Christ. I was the third person baptized into the church. In August, 1829, we began to preach the gospel of Christ. The following six Elders had then been ordained: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, Samuel H. Smith, Hyrum Smith and myself. The Book of Mormon was still in the hands of the printer, but my brother, Christian Whitmer, had copied from the manuscript the teachings and doctrine of Christ, being the things which we were commanded to preach. We preached, baptized and confirmed members into the Church of Christ, from August, 1829, until April 6th, 1830, being eight months in which time we had proceeded rightly; the offices in the church being Elders, Priests and Teachers.
Now, when April 6, 1830, had come, we had then established three branches of the Church of Christ, in which three branches were about seventy members: One branch was at Fayette, N. Y.; one at Manchester, N. Y., and one at Colesville, Pa. It is all a mistake about the church being organized on April 6, 1830, as I will show. We were as fully organizedspirituallybefore April 6th as we were on that day. The reason why we met on that day was this; the world had been telling us that we were not a regularly organized church, and we had no right to officiate in the ordinance of marriage, hold church property, etc., and that we should organize according to the laws of the land. On this account we met at my fathers house in Fayette, N. Y., on April 6, 1830, to attend to this matter of organizing according to the laws of the land; you can see this from Sec. 17 Doctrine and Convenants: the church was organized on April 6th agreeable to the laws of our country. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, pg 32-34)Indeed, the Lord defined His church in D&C 10:67, showing that it was already in existence at least since 1828. There was no need to organize something that was already extant. Joseph's act of registering with the state was a slow poison that proved fatal to his creation sixty years later.
Legal ping. Input?
Apparently, so did your Corporate President; the thing is, though, that only those on the upper levels of the Multi-Level Marketing scheme make the big bucks. Downline shmucks have blind faith in making it big, but there's a big difference between seeing a bright future and having one.
It is an interesting perspective. I assume that the author belongs to one of the “fundamentalist” Mormon sects. Legally, he seems to be claiming that churches ought not be recognized by the state as legal entities; however, it’s more of a theological claim than a legal one. Church buildings and graveyards must belong to someone or something for property tax purposes, for example. I suppose that individual members could keep title rather than gifting land to an under-the-radar church, but most people in America like the stability of the Congregational/corporate model. Whether those people are theologically correct is not a legal question.
“I assume that the author belongs to one of the ‘fundamentalist’ Mormon sects.”
Sheesh! Doesn’t anybody click on the original post anymore?
I’m the writer of the piece under discussion, and aligned with mainstream LDS. You’ll find, however, that I am not in thrall to the Brethren nor their constant bleating for obeisance.
Webheart, I emphasize with your frustration regarding all the italicizing, bolding, and increasing of the font size of my article. Although I understand Greyfox’s motivation for emphasizing certain points (and I appreciate him for reposting it!), those emphases are his, not mine. So Elsie, no need to put my words back into a word processor and straighten them all out again. You’ll find my post in it’s original form quite readable here, complete with a snappy portrait of Jesus as the Corporate Man:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html
Also, note that Greyfox did not post the entire article; in fact, my piece wasn’t called “The Vanishing LDS Church.” That was just a subtitle of one section. The full piece is titled “How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ.”
In there I have already addressed Mr. Reaganaut’s concerns about how a church can function absent corporation.
The very question is evidence of how thoroughly Americans have come to accept the premise that no business can function without being incorporated. Prior to the 20th century romance for such status, people did just fine as regular businesses, sole proprietors, partnerships, or simply companies.
Many churches today have come to the realization that they have been conned into thinking incorporation was necessary, and there is a rush now to dis-incorporate. You might want to ask those churches how they manage to pay their employees and engage in commerce with suppliers. They are able to do so because they operate as a church, an independent entity that does not seek permission from the State for its existence. They seem to be functioning just fine, as churches always did before America went corporate crazy a hundred years ago.
I would remind Mr. Reaganaut by the way, that churches don’t pay property taxes. At least those not subject to Caesar.
You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
Courtesy ping to FReepers mentioned in your reply, that weren’t pinged.
Btw, thanks for bumping the thread...
I’m sorry, I clicked on the link to the book at Amazon. I apologize for assuming by the harshness of your (apparently excerpted) article that you were not mainstream LDS. I do agree that incorporation is immaterial to the purposes of the Church.
As you stated in your article, "I wanted to include the following information in the essay above, but the piece was already so long I didn't have the heart to put you readers through a longer stretch."......the excerpt I DID post is quite long, thus the emphasis on certain points. As I explained, a lot of readers are inclined to see a long post and rather than wade through it, will move on. I feel that the information you have made available is of interest to the readers of the mormon threads.
As to the "meat" of the article, I pull this quote from you...You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
I'm sure I am speaking for many when I change it just a little.."You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist answer to a leadership consisting of businessmen and attorneys and a "prophet" who requires a "sustaining vote".
While the Church employs an independent auditing department which provides an annual report to the Church[1], it has not published full financial reports since 1959.
The Council was established by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr. on 8 July 1838.[2] As of April 2009, the members of the Council are:
I invite you to stick around and join in the discussion here. We welcome new voices to the debate.
It ain't vanishing as much as it is fragmenting...
Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.
Yup; I'll go along with that conviction thing.
We see them being CONVICTED and sent to jail for white collar crime at a rate that is disporportionate for their numbers.
The anti Mormons can go on their merry way spreading these horrible threads but it mattereth not.
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
Joseph Smith |
Oh, I don’t fault you at all for not excerpting more of my piece, Greyfox. It is most certainly very long, and as you mention, even the part you excerpted is looooong. Conciseness is not one of my better traits.
I hope nothing I said led you to think I was critical of your offering the excerpt, and I do understand your motivation for highlighting certain lines. But when I saw Elsie’s recommendation that it be put into a word processor and straightend out, I felt a mention of where it could be found would be helpful. I’m very grateful to you for plugging it.
(That piece, by the way, has had an astonishing run, getting more than 11,000 hits in its first twelve days and thousands more since, so I do believe Daymon Smith’s research has hit a chord with a lot of people.)
Thanks for the welcome. I was an early reader of FR, but parted ways during the Bush administration because I’m a traditional conservative (constitutionalist)and FR seemed to have skewed heavily toward a Neocon philosophy in those days.
I concur completely with your reworking of my quote above. And MrReaganaut, I’m not at all upset with you, either. Happy to have stumbled onto this forum and happy to be aboard with you, mates.
Just as a point of interest, Elsie, during my research on my piece about polygamy I had some conversations with the authors of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, who are former Reorgs but refuse to affiliate with the newly formed Community of Christ.
Pamela Price told me there are thousands of former Reorgs unhappy with the change, and particularly miffed that the CofC retains the rights to the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically to prevent those dissidents from claiming affiliation with that name. There’s some real bad feelings between traditional Reorgs and the Community of Christ. Gets their blood boiling just talking about it.
Actually, my suggestion was to WEBHEART, who seemed to find annoying the usage of various typographical mannerisms that make certain words and ideas standout from the REST!!
(I took it a bit PERSONAL! myself.)
I resemble that REMARK!!
I encourage you to post sections of "How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ" here that were not included in my thread and/or new thoughts you may have about the subject.
I left the mormon church in the sixties, so the organization I knew has changed so much that I hardly recognize it since "correlation".
bttt
bttt
I started reading a paragraph and found it both humorous and very insightful, but the sentences were likewise extremely long. The entire book reads like this. Also, I'm well educated but I needed a dictionary frequently while reading this book. There were a few words in other languages tossed in as well. While reading, I didn't feel like getting up to go use an internet translator, so I missed a bit of the meaning at times. Overall, this book will require commitment if you're going to finish it. This book begins by explaining that it has been written by the author's evil twin, who has a very verbose and irritating writing style. True to these promises, the book was overly verbose- sometimes to the point of being quite painful- and some sections were difficult to understand due to the writing style. The style for the first several pages, with the computer plot, was so difficult that this section was almost impossible to follow. After that it improved somewhat. I found myself reading like an editor and identifying on nearly every page changes that could have been made that would have preserved the quirky style while making the book much more readable. I think the author would probably say that limited readability was often his intent, however, I got the sense that there were some areas in which there was less readability than he intended.
Samuel Clemens did!
All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few, except the elect have seen it or at least taken the trouble to read it.I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me.It is such a pretentious affair and yet so slow, so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration.It is chloroform in print.
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