Posted on 11/28/2010 12:27:04 AM PST by delacoert
We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with god at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us--freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.
We are aware, however, that we are hazarding every earthly blessing, particularly property, and probably life itself, in striking this blow at tyranny and oppression: yet notwithstanding, we most solemnly declare that no man, or set of men combined, shall, with impunity, violate obligations as sacred as many which have been violated, unless reason, justice and virtue have become ashamed and sought the haunts of the grave, though our lives be the forfeiture.
Many of us have sought a reformation in the church, without a public exposition of the enormities of crimes practiced by its leaders, thinking that if they would hearken to counsel, and shew fruit meet for repentance, it would be as acceptable with God, as though they were exposed to public gaze, "For the private path, the secret acts of men, If noble, far the noblest of their lives." but our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence, and particularly by Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church. We would ask him on the other hand, if the overthrow of the Church was not inevitable, to which he often replies, that we would all go to Hell together, and convert it into a heaven, by casting the Devil out; and says he, Hell is by no means the place this world of fools suppose it to be, but on the contrary, it is quite an agreeable place; to which we would now reply, he can enjoy it if he is determined not to desist from his evil ways; but as for us, and ours, we will serve the Lord our God! It is absurd for men to assert that all is well, while wicked and corrupt men are seeking our destruction, by a perversion of sacred things; for all is not well, while whoredoms and all manner of abominations are practiced under the cloak of religion. Lo! the wolf is in the fold, arrayed in sheep's clothing, and is spreading death and devastation among the saints: and we say to the watchmen standing upon the walls, cry aloud and spare not, for the day of the Lord is at hand -- a day cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate.
So true; but since you guys will not acknowledge your own history; we ANTIs find the task assigned to us!
Do you really need to keep drawing attention to yourself that exposing the truth about the religion of Mormonism is bitter fruit to you? A little honey might help you take your medicine, Resty.
You do realized you are making this personal
Resty, you grand hypocrite, you do realize your little insults like the bowl of Mormon faces on clay balls is making it personal, right? Bwahahahahaha ... you are so predictable, Resty!
I agree, Resty!
This is what I do know no matter what faith anyone is on earth the Lord loves all His children,
I agree with that sentiment, Resty. There's only one problem:
The Bible and the Book of Mormon agree that not all people on earth are God's children. (If that was the case, the Bible wouldn't talk about people being "adopted" as His children, or "becoming" His children -- John 1:12).
Notice that John 1:12-13 wreaks havoc with Mormon theology that you were all sons & daughters of Elohim in "the pre-existence." Haven't Mormons ever noticed that underlined word above "become" in John 1:12?
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to BECOME children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
The Greek word, "right" there is exousia...authority...right. Jesus, through John, indicates that this "childhood of God" doesn't arrive through "natural descent" -- like being born a Mormon. It's only through being "born of God." [And again, if this was talking about some pre-existence, Paul's verses about being "adopted" as His children would be ludicrous]
And that word ”become” isn't particular to the Bible, either:
...for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have BECOME his sons and his daughters. (Mosiah 5:7)
This passage talks about changed hearts through faith -- not through a pre-existence spirit-birth, which isn't even mentioned in the BoM.
And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, BECOMING his sons and daughters; And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. (Mosiah 27:25-26)
The apostle Paul emphasized that we are to be adopted children
-- he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Eph. 1:5)
-- and not children of some pre-existence; hence, that’s why the Book of Mormon like passages from Mosiah talks about Mormons becoming children -- NOT that they always have been children).
In fact, Paul describes this adoption as future tense: we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Rom. 8:23)
The downside of all this, Resty, is that some religious legalists are NOT children of the Father. Jesus talked about that in John 8:41-44:
41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Resty: The Pharisees can barely compare with the legalism of Mormonism.
You cannot even cite every Mormon-made law you are supposed to obey! (No Mormon has ever even tried to take up that challenge from me)
This year, I scanned almost every article that references "laws" on Lds.org...it's a sad undertaking. 'Cause even your general authorities don't organize for grassroot Mormons a comprehensive listing of what "laws" you are supposed to obey.
James 2:10 says if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking ALL of it. The Law is not the way to salvation or exaltation. It only reveals my shortcomings and yours.
Resty: May you and other Mormons re-discover the gift of grace this Christmas. May you realize all the gifts given to you by those who love you is something you could never earn, or become worthy of. It's done out of pure love for you.
Where is the hope in this phrase? (There really is none. It's a vague, "I hope I get the greatest of all gifts" under the Christmas tree this month).
Upon what is the "striver" you're talking about depending upon for salvation? (You've already answered this Q: They are "striving" via their "abilities" -- often upon more man-made knowledge than divine light.
Is that really a Gospel of Hope, Resty? To put your faith in your "abilities" and your "striving?"
Jesus covered and defeated our sin on the cross. (He took our place not only for Adam's sin, but for our personal sins as well). He is the Hope.
Jesus defeated the forces of darkness on the cross. (Whatever striving we do vs. them, they are a defeated foe, like dogs on a chain)
Jesus defeated death.
Too many conversations about after-life deal w/ abstracts...Kind of like Martha's response to Jesus in John 11:23-24 when "Jesus said to her, 'Your brother will rise again.' Martha answered, 'I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'"
Jesus wasn't interested in discussing the resurrection impersonally and abstractly with Mary.
Beloved Mormons, neither am I in this post. If your hope is a vague, abstract hope that you'll have "done enough" -- whatever "enough" is -- Jesus says the same thing:
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)
Jesus doesn't extend to Martha a religious laundry list of being in the...
...Mormon church...
...Having temple access & performing rituals there...
...Performing all the laws & commandments perfectly...
...Etc.
Nor does He automatically say, "Hey, you're all automatically resurrected because I'm going to atone for you." (Remember, He also said there IS a "resurrection unto damnation" in John 5:29)
He invites us to personally believe in the Jesus of the Bible, the One who IS the resurrection Himself. The One who says we ALREADY HAVE eternal life (John 3:36; 5:24).
If you think eternal life is ONLY the future (and obviously it includes the future), then you have disbelieved Jesus and His words in John 3:36; 5:24. Believing Him includes believing His Words.
* Jesus Himself is eternal life (John 17:3).
* A relationship with Jesus and the ONE TRUE GOD IS eternal life (John 17:3).
* If you're waiting til the afterlife to solidify that relationship with Him, it'll be too late.
* And if you think that striving and ability-posturing trumps believing Him as the way to advance yourself, then you've dissed Him as "the Way" (John 14:6) and as the Door (John 10).
Striving and ability-posturing is not "the Way." It's a doomed attempt to climb something significantly higher than Mt. Everest without the oxygen masks of life.
Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life!
... bitter fruits of mormonism placemarker
Yes, I have wondered how your making it personal doesn’t seem to register until you complain to the RM that someone else is making it personal. How DO you do that, Resty? LOL
****
Personal attacks are not allowed anywhere on Free Republic. Personal attacks include name calling, threats, asking a poster if he’s off his meds or drunk, etc.
On the Religion Forum, reading minds or attributing motive or focusing the thread on another Freeper, personally is “making it personal.”
It is not making it personal to do these things to groups, authors, deities, religious authorities, etc.
For instance, if I said “Buddhists think ...” that would not be making it personal. But if I said “You think ...” that would be making it personal.
Accusing another Freeper of telling a lie is always “making it personal” because it attributes the motive, the intent to deceive. Words such as “false” “error” “wrong” do not att
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Well I also read on the RM Profile
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My job:
I am not the protector of your beliefs.
I am not the arbiter of truth, for that posters must turn to God or whoever they consider to be the final authority.
I am not the arbiter of logical proofs, for that the posters must turn to the mathematicians, logicians and philosophers.
I am not the arbiter of fact, for that the posters must turn to the scientists, physical evidence, testimonies and historians.
I am not the arbiter of the meaning of words, and I’m not sure there exists such a final authority so the burden rests with the posters to explain what they mean.
But when it comes to this Religion Forum, I lay out the guidelines and resolve disputes within those guidelines. But I do not “settle” matters of dogma, doctrine, tradition or meanings of words.
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Yet to me it seems some RM choose to ignore their own advice about not being arbtier!
We’ve received a number of complaints (including abuse reports) that posters are offended when other posters say that Mormons are not Christian. But the belief that only Trinitarians can be called Christian is both deeply held and official doctrine in a number of belief groups.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2578704/posts?page=2754#2754
To me it is more in the hands of the whims of men
Just to help you, Lady, I'll post the quotes from your own religion's founder and leadership which verify the above heresies as taught by Momronism:
Below are a few direct quotes from the founders of your religion. Are there any of these quotes which you disagree with and if so where do you disagree? ... The quotes are far far from Christian conceptualization of God or Jesus, and represent the god of Mormonism and the jesus of Mormonism, but not anything like the God of Judaism/Christianity or the Jesus Who is The Christ, The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us, Who was with God and was God in the beginning:
The Mormon/Smithian concept of the Mormon god:
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
The question for Mormons becomes, who is the head of the Gods as pertains to this ‘council of gods? The plural reveals Mormonism is polytheistic!
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
Whatever is taken by Smith as the ’beginning’, the Alpha point, Smith says god was a man. That he "was once as we are now." We already know from the above quote that the Momron godhead came even after the Mormon god was appointed. The Mormon god was no godhead in the beginning Smith portrays, yet John’s Gospel starts with 'The Word, Jesus, was with God and was God in the beginning.'
“I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
What's being said here? … The teaching of infinite regression of gods! Norm, readers, that is precisely what polytheism is, a belief in multiple gods. Mormons at FR deceitfully parse that to mean they aren't polytheistic because they only 'worship' the current godhead of three gods working in common purpose! But it is clearly polytheism since Smith is claiming that Jesus had a grandpa and great-grandpa!
Finally, Smith claims that God the Father also laid down His life in some sort of redemptive way, to earn/gain exaltation and the attributes of godhood! Which means whatever "time" you want to leave undefined, apparently god the father in Momronism had time enough to live as a man and die as a man for some whole other world, before the Momron god was a god!
Smith says Heavenly Father laid down his life as a redeemer on another world. Brigham Young added that “every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870)
If there is no ultimate beginning, then there is no ‘Alpha‘, which of course contradicts what God said of Himself as The Alpha and Omega. Thus the god of Mormonism is not the same God of Judeo-Christian belief. Resty, that is a big heresy you want Christians to ignore!
"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, … and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first, when revelation informs him that God's works are without beginning? (Lds apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132, 1853)
And we will delve into what LDS teach regarding the Mormon jesus next. And to be sure, these 'deeper' precious offerings are not taught to the newly inducted into Mormonism, perhaps because the inductee would run from this heresy immediately, before the spirit is squelched so much as to sear the conscience into drinking the deeper lies. And whom is the Mormon jesus? A polygamist, according to the founders of the Mormon religion, and not God 'in the beginning'!
"Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82)."There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).
"In the Church councils, it was spoken of: "Joseph F. Smith_ He spoke upon the marriage in Cana of Galilee. He thought Jesus was the bridegroom and Mary and Martha the brides."(Journal of Wilford Woodruff, July 22, 1883).
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346).
"One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that great loved Jesus, such as Mary and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them and associated with the much; and when he arose from the dead, instead of first showing himself to his chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159).
And is/was the Mormon jesus, God with us? NO! Mormonism teaches the Mormon jesus gained the attributes of godhood and was not therefore God with us prior to the resurrection! And they teach that the Mormon jesus and satan are spirit brothers in the ‘pre-existence’, making the Mormon jesus an equal with not superior to the created angels … of course prior to gaining the attributes of Mormon godhood. [Literally the LDS jesus is a Mormon's elder brother, born to Heavenly Parents in the premortal life. Jesus, Lucifer and humans are all the same species and are brothers and sisters. (LDS Gospel Principles pp. 11, 17, 18)(D&C 93:29; PGP:Bk of Abr 3:21-22; Teachings, pp. 352-354) ]
"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).“It is readily apparent from these scriptures that there was a war in heaven in which Christ and Satan (Lucifer) fought against each other, and that there were followers of each. Satan was defeated and cast out along with his “angels” or followers. Where were all these followers, and who were they? The answer is that they were us. Christ and Satan and their followers warred in a heaven that pre-existed this earth and mortal existence. All of us lived in this heavenly spiritual realm before we were born with physical bodies on the earth. Christ was begotten of the Father, as were all of us, including Lucifer, who was a Son of the Morning. The title “Son of the Morning” could either signify that Lucifer was one of the earliest born of the spirits, or was illustrious, or both. The name Lucifer means “lightbearer” or “shining one.” Since both Christ and Lucifer were born of the Father, they are brothers in a spiritual sense, as all of us are brothers and sisters in that sense. (LDS teaching regarding Joseph Smith‘s, Pearl of Great Price: Book of Moses 4:1-4)
Huh I thought I had a reading problem I see I am not alone..
To clarify the post was about the RM saying they are not the arbiter of truth nor should the RM try to finesse.
Your cut and paste is irrelevant
Try reading it all the way through, Resty. I don’t have a secretary to write stuff for me to post, I put those posts together all by myself, for your edification. Are there any of those direct quotes from Joseph Smith and subsequent leadership of the LDS, which are heretical to Christianity, anything you disagree with? Is it clear to you that if you embrace those heresies then you are not following the Jesus of the Bible, and you are not trusting in the God of the Bible? ... It’s an either/or, Resty. Yes, it is that simple.
“Today many do not Recognized the Heavenly Father many only recognized the Son Jesus Christ.”
When you refer to “Heavenly Father” do you mean the main mormon earth god, who used to be a fallen and sinful man, but later became a god, who breeds with Heavenly Mother in eternity to produce “spirit” children - like Satan or Jesus?
ampu
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
“I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
If that is the 'fullness' a Mormon learns then the teacher is the anti-Christ, because taht rot is not the God of Judeo-Christian belief. A prophet of God would not teach such rot, so your founding 'prophet' may be the prophet for the god of Mormonism, but Jos Smith is not a Prophet of the Most High God.
The Bible is very clear when one allows the Spirit of the Lord to edify.
I have asked and talk to the Lord and the Spirit of the Lord has bear witnees to me who better to teach and edify.
John 14
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid
Moroni 10
3Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
Have a safe weekend.
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