LDS don’t get theological respect because they seek and shun mainstream acceptance, prof says

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | Nov. 11, 2010 | Kristen Moulton

[Colofornian]

Provo • Defensiveness has left Mormonism in a pickle, according to one of the Utah-based faith’s leading intellectuals.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is respected for its Mormon Tabernacle Choir and pop singing groups, dancers, pro football players and competence in times of disaster.

And, yet, said Terryl Givens, professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond in Virginia, “in return for qualified esteem, the public reserves the right not to take [it] seriously as a belief system.”

In fact, a 2007 survey ranked Mormons — along with Buddhists and Muslims — among the nation’s least-liked faiths.

“Mormons like everyone else,” wrote Robert Putnam and David Campbell in their new book, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, “while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.”

Givens was the keynote speaker Thursday at the Mormon Media Studies Symposium at Brigham Young University. The two-day gathering at the Provo school’s Conference Center continues Friday.

The symposium is examining the way the LDS Church and its members think about, use and create media in their varied forms — from public relations to film.

Givens, a Mormon, traced the faith’s difficulty getting its theology taken seriously through three periods of its history, beginning with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery.

His survey continued through the latter half of the 19th century, when Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage, and he pinpointed the moment the religion began to gain a cultural toehold: when the Tabernacle Choir wowed listeners at the 1893 World’s Fair in Chicago.

Mormons, he said, let detractors frame the issues and, in fact, savored their role as “blessed” victims.

“Mormons were perfectly happy to play by the rules that had been inaugurated by their detractors and opponents,” Givens said. “They have played defense.”

Starting with Smith, he said, the church’s message has been more about claiming compatibility with mainstream Christianity than proclaiming its distinct theology.

“You could almost see a fractured sense in his [Smith’s] writing of the Articles of Faith,” Givens said, responding to a question from the audience of about 300 after his talk. “It’s as if he’s going back and forth.”

“Mormons are still characterized by that kind of schizophrenia,” said Givens, who called the Book of Mormon a “completely untapped resource” that is regarded more as an icon of Smith’s prophetic call than a theological source.

One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims.

“I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year.

“Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink and Mormonism had the lifeboats,” Givens said. Pratt resisted the impulse of most Mormons to head back to the foundering ship. “Where Mormonism will steer its boat in the 21st century is not yet clear.”

Bountiful resident Ann Marie Blodgett, a former blogger about Mitt Romney who is considering blogging again, said Givens is right about one thing.

“On one hand, we want to be accepted and, on the other, we want to be different,” she said. “What I took away is we don’t need to be afraid of who we are.”

kmoulton@sltrib.com

[colorcountry]

Bump and new tagline

[guitar4jesus]

LOL!

[Vendome]

So here we are. The Mormons are in the middle of a PR crisis and looking for ways to bridge the divide.

So let’s start with the two things that offend all of Christendom:

1. Mormons hold that all other Christian faiths are in a fallen state and therefore dark. As such, Christians are apostates, worshiping in doctrines that are completely defective and at the same time they are Christians of sorts yet wholly inferior to LDS.

2. Mormons compound their error with arrogance veiled behind a happy face telling everyone they are “The One True Faith”.

To be sure, there can be no LDS without the restoration of the Gospel. However they make demand on Christendom of equivalency, “We are too!” attitude or they play spiritual gymnastics and say “We are Christians”, “We believe in Christ”, etc.

Left out of the “We are Christians” statement is the implied message “But you are not”.

Christians simply cannot accept their viewpoint as it demonstrates the arrogance of “Holier than thou” which is offensive to anyone even in the same faith or a “Well ain’t that nice. I never met a changeling before. Don’t think we have anything in common”.

That’s just for starters. When one learns that man can deify oneself it becomes scary if you understand that God demands “Thou shalt have no other idols before me” and odd since God recognizes no other false idols or deities “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

God has a way of telling us directly and unequivocally
“I am the LORD, and there is no other”.

Again,

“And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me”

Further,
“I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me”.

So I am looking for a particular verse regarding there can be no other God and I find this:

“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35

“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39

“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22

“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

“you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” John 5:44

” John 10:30 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3

“to the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27

“there is no God but one “ 1 Corinthians 8:4

“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17

“which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5

“You believe that God is one . You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19

“the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25

So how is Christianity to reconcile LDS doctrine calling it whole and true when God says “There are no others before me or after me”?

Man cannot raise himself to deity and God really has a problem with the Mormon aspiration of ascension to Godhood.

[ejonesie22]

I have stated several times on these threads alone that ultimately the LDS will mainstream for survival. The information age is killing them and shrinking their markets.

As it is they lay at complete odds with Christianity, and indeed since it is a fabrication built out of the Christian faith it works against them. One cannot slander and twist the words of the savior of 100s of millions and then expect to be treated as equals. Not even the Buddhist or Muslims claim to be something they aren't or steal whole cloth from other faiths to such a level. Their current marketing push embracing the name "Christian", one they have have been running for a decade or two makes it even more interesting.

As it said in the article, in the beginning the problem with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery. Since that “denouncement was true it is not like things were going to get better with time. When they reject all of the heretical teaching and mythological concepts of the BOM and other LDS doctrine, they will have a good base to work from.

Of course that is easier said than done. Expect some “revelations” over the next decades in an effort to normalize. Indeed this attempt is under way.

It will make for interesting debates, a sort of “ no we didn't” when confronted with the old beliefs. They do that already.

[Paragon Defender]

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you?

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[T Minus Four]

Entering mainstream Christianity will involve rejecting the BOM and embracing God’s Word, the Holy Bible.

Of course, doing that would require the rejection of everything that makes mormons mormon...

Exactly so. Mormon theology is much farther removed from Christianity as many Christians (and inded many Mormons) believe.

[T Minus Four]

I haven't met anyone yet who doesn't like the person who is a mormon, unless their behavior or actions demanded it. The people themselves are admired to a fault by many, in spite of their religion.

This is so true, SZ. I live in the middle of Mormon country and you could not find nicer people anywhere.

On the other hand, I've seen the inside of a few Mormons' hearts here on FR and it ain't pretty.

Maybe it's the anonymity, like when you put normally nice people in a car and the become agressive and rude.

[T Minus Four]

"They have played defense.”

They sure don't 'play' it very well on FR!

That's for sure.

[T Minus Four]

Good tagline CC :-)

[Godzilla]

Seekers of truth,

[T Minus Four]

Yes, by all means PD, thank you for the informative links. Seekers, especially look on the official LDS website and look at the lesson plans for what they will teach your smallest children in their Sunday school classes.

Here's an example: Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ

What fun to have your little ones make Joseph Smith finger puppets and reenact the sacred event!

Perhaps they will come home and sing this holy little hymn:

On a golden springtime, in a forest glade,
The Father and the Son appeared as Joseph knelt and prayed.
Awake, awake, O nations all!
Receive the gospel light!
The gospel true is here for you.
Receive its glorious light!

[Godzilla]

What was Joseph Smith REALLY doing in the woods that day?

[Colofornian]

As it is they lay at complete odds with Christianity, and indeed since it is a fabrication built out of the Christian faith it works against them. One cannot slander and twist the words of the savior of 100s of millions and then expect to be treated as equals. Not even the Buddhist or Muslims claim to be something they aren't or steal whole cloth from other faiths to such a level. Their current marketing push embracing the name "Christian", one they have have been running for a decade or two makes it even more interesting.

Well, being the sleuth I am, you'd be amazed at what has fallen in my lap from the oddest of sources (without me even trying) -- these from Mormon sources.

When Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie was still alive, he tried to convince his fellow inside-leaders that it was a mistake to chase the Christian brand.

He commented on how so much Mormon expenditure of focus had been on trying to prove Mormonism from the Bible. And then he labeled the Bible as a battleground.

Therefore, McConkie was of the internally expressed opinion that Mormonism was better off emphasizing everything distinctive that it was, including its distinctive "revelations."

Of course, I'm not sure if McConkie, having died in 1985, foresaw all what the computer -- and especially the Internet (which rippled out in the early 90s) would be able to do.

Had that been the case, he might have changed his tune.

BTW...I KNOW some Mormon lurker is reading this...and that you have some info that would bring to light something other Mormons need to know. Well, FREEPmail.

Remember: In Matthew 10:26-27 as well as in Luke 12:1-3, Jesus says what we keep hidden in secret today will be shouted from the rooftops one day.

It's ALL going to be exposed. My sin. Your sin. All the church hierarchical institutional sin.

Do you want to continue to be part of a dark cover-up; or let light shine where freedom beams and beckons?

[delacoert]

… founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery

ROTFLMBO

Truth is immutable.

Smith WAS a conman who perpetrated fraud leading to Mormonism. The book of Mormon is more despicable than a mere forgery. Mormon theology is the "doctrine of demons." Mormons are a collection of deceivers.

[greyfoxx39]

There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis. They have an obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The strawman argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picked quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

Paragon Defender Maxims:

"The way to highlight the straw man is to embody him!"

"Make the posters the issue, not the issues."

Link

As of December 31, 2009, there were 51,736 LDS missionaries serving in 344 church missions throughout the world. Their work, often in cooperation with local members, resulted in 280,106 convert baptisms in 2009.[12] Author David Stewart points out that the number of convert baptisms per missionary per year has fallen from a high of 8.03 in 1989 to just 4.67 in 2005.[13] He argues that the number of converts would increase if Mormon missionaries made greater efforts in meeting new people; he points out that the average companionship spends only four or five hours per week attempting to meet new people.[13]

How terrible it is that a handful of Christians post a handful of threads per week on FreeRepublic to counter the proselytizing efforts of the missionaries and public relations campaign of the mormon church. Don't you just feel SO sorry that the poor, persecuted mormons aren't able to have their message heard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJqhFm2Zpck

[greyfoxx39]

On topic: Harry Reid is a mormon in good standing with a temple recommend which is given only to the most "worthy". No way to compare that "worthiness" to the average Christian member of any other religion since only the "worthy" are allowed to set foot in their holy temples.

Did SEIU Ballot Fraud Play Role in Harry Reid Re-Election?

Every FReeper is aware of Reid's character. Why is he still a "worthy" mormon?

[ejonesie22]

Every FReeper is aware of Reid's character. Why is he still a "worthy" mormon?

[Elsie]

Hi, PD!

[Elsie]

Teddy Bear’s Picnic?

[Elsie]

Of course, I'm not sure if McConkie, having died in 1985, foresaw all what the computer -- and especially the Internet (which rippled out in the early 90s) would be able to do.

I didn't; and I was in the business!