Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Loren Franck

[restornu]

The way you sound is like you never received a witness when reading certain passages in the Bible.

In that case you wouldnt be able to discern if the spirit of the Lord in other situation because of your claim.

So if one is stranged somewhere and needs help from the Lord they would have no way of knowing for sure if that was the Lord or somthing else.

So if someone is giving a sermon you would have to dismiss that witness because you would not know for sure what it is.

yet we read in history many accounts where many have received a witness from the Holy Ghost.

[Tennessee Nana]

So if one is stranged somewhere and needs help from the Lord they would have no way of knowing for sure if that was the Lord or somthing else.
________________________________________________

How do you know “for sure if that was the Lord or somthing else.” ???

[william clark]

It’s very simple. Oh, I’ve been helped by the Holy Spirit, but that same Holy Spirit is the one that encourages me to be familiar enough with the scriptures to recognize things that run counter to that which has been clearly revealed. So when I claim that the Holy Spirit assures me that the Book of Mormon is a false gospel, whereas you claim that He confirms it as truth, can it be that the same spirit is teaching opposite things as true? No, clearly one of us is being guided by a false spirit. The Bible provides us with very good guidelines for determine whether or not that is happened, but they are useless if we subordinate the authority of the Bible to that of the Book of Mormon or to a spirit who asserts authority over the Word of God.

God is not the author of confusion. He said that while heaven and earth would pass away, His words would not. Not even “many plain and precious things.”

[Tennessee Nana]

So if someone is giving a sermon you would have to dismiss that witness because you would not know for sure what it is.
_________________________________________________________

has there ever been an occassion when you yourself have not had to do that ???

[SZonian]

Excellent description, I have thought about how to describe it [”...lack wisdom...”] before. There is a difference between “wisdom” and “knowledge”, but if you look at it from a secular point of view (dictionary), they appear to be have the same meaning.

There will be some folks who won’t get it though.

It will unveil the fact that they have been deceived and will go into full denial and possibly full on attack mode.

God Bless wc,

SZ

[Tennessee Nana]

In that case you wouldnt be able to discern if the spirit of the Lord in other situation because of your claim.
______________________________________________

For your own claim, have you never been in this same situation ???

[restornu]

So when I claim that the Holy Spirit assures me that the Book of Mormon is a false gospel

***
so describe in your words how the Holy Spirit told you?

[Tennessee Nana]

yet we read in history many accounts where many have received a witness from the Holy Ghost.
___________________________________________

Ah where do “we” read this ???

If its history, it was recorded somewhere...

I’m not even asking for all your “many accounts”

Just one or 2...

Waiting in TN....

[Tennessee Nana]

so describe in your words how the Holy Spirit told you?
__________________________________________________

You first...

[william clark]

No doubt in much the same manner that you believe He is confirming in you that the Book of Mormon is true. It’s an inner sense of affirmation. Not a phone call, an e-mail or a text message. When I read the warning of Galatians against embracing “another gospel,” even one delivered by an angel out of heaven, I am assured the Book of Mormon falls into this category. When I read Jude 3, I am assured that no “restoration” of the gospel was either needed or foretold. When I read in the Old Testament that God proclaims there are no other gods, and that He has no knowledge of the existence of any others, I believe Him and don’t presume that He’s simply less informed than a youthful LDS missionary.

[T Minus Four]

Its Veterans Day, Flying Inmen... Thank you for your wonderful service

Thank you Nana! Thank you for your service too!

[T Minus Four]

It has never been Church doctrine and I don’t care what someone written as their opinion.

Yup. That was soooooooooooooo last prophet ago [ rolls eyes]

See my tagline for a fellow mormon's explanation of how to ignore early leaders' inconveniently embarrassing pronouncements.

[greyfoxx39]

When I read in the Old Testament that God proclaims there are no other gods, and that He has no knowledge of the existence of any others, I believe Him and don’t presume that He’s simply less informed than a youthful LDS missionary.

"Oh Snap" tee shirt in the mail to you ;0)

[Paragon Defender]

Thank you for your honest and civil post.

[delacoert]

For those of you who wish to reply with something to show my stupidity, cupidity, ignorance, or to otherwise reflect poorly on me, well, have at it and may God bless you!

<rolleyes>

I have little doubt, that your assessment of my replies to you and your characterizations of my Christianity (lack of more accurately) are deliberately crafted to "reflect poorly on me." Not because of any validity of your characterization, nor any weakness of my words or conduct, but conversely because of the effectiveness of my words in highlighting the weak credibility, and foolish and unremarkable ability you demonstrate in discernment of truth IMO.

Don't let the door hit you in the buttocks on the way out.

IMO you demonstrate little wisdom and near non-extant willingness/ability to admit either your own mistakes or confess your own sins - in contraindication to your Christian confession. (IMO discreditable pridefulness or more likely mere religiosity instead of real Christian conversion.)

I remain unpersuaded. (Call me unsurprised.)

I'm sure that you continue in your view, as well. Which is, as far as I can tell, objectvely false. Are you now all liars? (A noticeable lack of rhetorical earnestness IMO.)

… it's unlikely that further beating of the horse will bring it back to life.

It's not that you have failed to persuade by maintaining something even approaching truth, but I agree that it's useless for you to attempt to beat out a convincingly truthful proposition … <sigh>.

I can't say that I believe most of my respondents have done likewise at all times.

Again, you demonstrate little wisdom and near non-extant willingness/ability to confess your understanding of truth IMO.

I have often felt bludgeoned in this thread.

Stop whining. You have given as good as you have gotten. Part of me enjoys a good debate and appreciates your willingness to hang in there - though not your choice to resort to whining.

I can see why the LDS folks pretty much despise you.

An incongruent position and pathetic in your feeble willingness to whine once again IMO.

Mormon founder, Joseph Smith, provably and incorrectly declared his choice to despise and teach his contempt for ALL Christianity.

And uniform choices of Mormons to ignore the effect of such teaching is a demonstration of their cascading contempt toward ALL devoted Christians and evocative of strong opposition by true Christians.

Smith's choice to fraudulently create and contemtuously teach such heresy testifies of his willingness to despise Christianity.

The willing agreement of Mormons with the same testifies of their willingness to despise Christianity.

IMO your choice to oppose we who resist Mormonism, weakens Christianity while choosing to apologize for Mormons who condemn you.

Your dedication to advocacy of Mormon truth mostly convinces me that you are a LDS operative, though I acknowledge the possibility that you are a LDS dupe.

Deal with it.

[restornu]

1 When I read the warning of Galatians against embracing “another gospel,” even one delivered by an angel out of heaven, I am assured the Book of Mormon falls into this category.

Is it not really your assumption for when you read carefully it is the Lord talking in the days of Paul giving that warning which takes place in early AD’s right after the Lord assention.

Also what about this Angel?

Rev 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

___

2 When I read Jude 3, I am assured that no “restoration” of the gospel was either needed or foretold.

The LDS reads these verse literally.

Jude

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and denying

1 the only Lord God

2 and our Lord Jesus Christ

In Jude 4 it is fortold that ungodly men who I call the tradition of men (ToM) and that teach to deny the Father and the only begotten Son.

Jesus said in John 14
... and how Jesus uses the word WE.

John 14
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17 (see how the word ONE is being used)

21 That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

1 JN 2

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

John 20

John 20: 17, 21
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Elsie]

“This is my Beloved Son, hear him!” (Joseph Smith History 1:17)

To me, that is an unambiguous confession of Jesus Christ.

Not to me.

It's more like THIS:

Acts 13:10

"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?

---

Remember; it was a CLOUD that appeared when the BIBLE recorded the words heard by John:

King James Bible

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“You assume that Joseph Smith was visited by demons. That’s only your opinion.

Yes Normandy but there are Biblical facts that support that belief and logical reasons to believe it is reasonable... Unlike mormonism, which only has feelings and feelings about those feelings.

Best
Ampu

[william clark]

Is it not really your assumption for when you read carefully it is the Lord talking in the days of Paul giving that warning which takes place in early AD’s right after the Lord assention.

It's not a matter of assuming. What I am obligated to do is to compare the gospel delivered by the new angel and see if it lines up with that already revealed. In this case, the Book of Mormon clearly does not; therefore, it is deemed another gospel. And yes, the warning was valid for Paul's time, but it carries no expiration date.

Also what about this Angel?

Rev 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

What about him? Scripture doesn't say that an angel can't bear a gospel message. Note the use of the phrase "the everlasting gospel." That immediately distinguishes it from "another gospel."

2 When I read Jude 3, I am assured that no “restoration” of the gospel was either needed or foretold.

The LDS reads these verse literally.

Jude

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

If you read this literally, then how do you discard the use of the word "once" when referring to how many times the faith was delivered? Again, no restoration necessary.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Something to always guard against regardless of what church one belongs to, and the LDS has hardly been immune to those who have preyed upon their own, posing as upright while committing any number of offenses.

and denying

1 the only Lord God

2 and our Lord Jesus Christ

In Jude 4 it is fortold that ungodly men who I call the tradition of men (ToM) and that teach to deny the Father and the only begotten Son.

Which is exactly what one does when teaching that God was once a man, and that men can become gods after him, as well as teaching that Jesus was created and is the sibling of Lucifer.

Jesus said in John 14
... and how Jesus uses the word WE.

John 14 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17 (see how the word ONE is being used)

21 That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I'm about to be late leaving for work, so I can't get into the exegesis of this scripture here, and I can only surmise where you're going with it.

I didn't previously raise the issue of the Trinity, but since that seems to be what you're now addressing, let me refer you to Jesus' use of the phrase, "before Abraham was, I am." Clearly the Jews understood him to be identifying himself as the creator who spoke to Moses in the Old Testament. Otherwise, they would not have picked up stones to use against him. Secondly, recall that Jesus did not correct Thomas when he fell at the risen Jesus' feet and declared "my lord and my God." He went so far as to affirm Thomas' statement.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

All of which speak to the authority of the Father over the Son. Doesn't speak to their shared substance.

Gotta run. Thanks for the civil dialogue.

[delacoert]

The content of sitest's post #260 has SUBSTANTIALLY changed, obviously with privilege granted by someone with Religion Admin authority.

I protest.

I adamantly object.

Even requests for spelling corrections are routinely ignored, let alone any post replacements of such a substantial nature.

Delete all the original posts for whatever reason upon any request even spelling errors. Heck, the revised post may be posted later … or treat everyone the same.

I adamantly object to and protest to the administrator sanctioned change to sitest's post #260 because I responded to the original content of the post in #335 with great attention to the content and rigorous attention, demonstated by the substantial number of quotations I included.

My post in #335 now appears unsubstantiated or inaccurate. I do not wish my post to be removed or altered. I wish it to appear accurate either by reference the restoration of sitetest's original post #260 or by deletion of #260.