Casting Lots Over Israel...Joel 3

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/ ^ | 11-09-10 | bill Randles

[MonicaG]

Thanks for posting this. Prayers for Israel, IDF, and our troops in the Middle East. Interesting times.

[Jen Shroder]

One would hope that all Christian men would be a better husband, father and Christian by being informed and knowing where to stand in the future. Especially when it’s time to vote.

[quadrant]

No true Christian can fail to support Israel, for it is the embodiment of God's will for Jews. If you doubt this, I suggest you read the Bible very closely.
Is Israel perfect? Of course not, but what political entity is perfect?
Now, Israel may have been founded by individuals whose political orientation leaned toward socialism, but those individuals are long gone. The Israeli economy and body politic has undergone an enormous transformation and evolution since the War of Independence, but that is to be expected, as states who embrace democracy always evolve and change. And more change can be expected.
Indeed, it is Israel's opponents who have failed to change. For the most part they are still the state directed autocracies they were when they became independent.
Of course, Muslims are human beings. Who has denied that?
Focus for evangelism - wonderful phrase, but one for the most part that is devoid of realistic thinking. It would be wonderful if Muslims were to embrace Christianity, but mass conversion is very unlikely. Islam is demonically inspired religion and as such has a violent and potent grip on Muslims. They will not be persuaded to abandon the faith easily. Such an act would take a miracle that is beyond human capacity.
Muslims as pawns - if anyone has shuffled Muslims around a chessboard it is other Muslims. They have exploited and manipulated other Muslims since the founding of the faith. Palestinians could have easily been absorbed into Jordan, as its population is already majority Palestinian, but every Arab/Muslim state refused the opportunity. Now, we are faced with a large, disaffected Palestinian population that squats in Gaza and the West Bank with no prospects and no hope, except for the rather forlorn (at least until Obama became president) hope that the US will force Israel to relinquish some of its historic homeland.
Muslim states refused to accommodate Israel for many reasons but mostly for reasons of pride, the most deadly of sins. They could not bring themselves to admit that a despised minority, the Jews, were capable of reestablishing a national homeland in a area considered to be a Muslim religious trust. Muslims have created a violent situation and now wish someone else to solve it for them.

[Jen Shroder]

Thanks so much for posting this...I KNEW there was a reason I needed to check in here today! Excellent read and something all Americans need to understand, though few do.

[mas cerveza por favor]

No true Christian can fail to support Israel, for it is the embodiment of God's will for Jews.

False. One may have geopolitical reasons for supporting modern Israel, but it is sin against truth to say there is a Christian obligation to do so. "Christian" Zionism is the Nineteenth Century invention of John Darby taken up by charlatans such as John Scofield and John Hagee. The worldly doctrine is entirely dependent upon novel interpretation of opaque prophesy and is directly contradicted by the clear teachings of the Gospels and Epistles.

[quadrant]

Not so. The US has important “geopolitical” reasons for supporting Israel, but those are not the only reasons - or even the most compelling - for supporting the Jewish state.
In fact it may be argued with some slight validity that supporting Israel is against the “geopolitical” interests of the US. I don't believe that, but I admit an argument can be made for that position.
Never read a word of John Darby or John Scofield and their opinions mean nothing to me. I do my best to ignore Mr Hagee. Please detail for me the “clear teachings” of the Gospels and the Epistles that forbid Christians from supporting Israel. I've read both several times and never reached that conclusion to any degree whatsoever. Prophesies that give the land the Jews and predict the reestablishment of Israel may be opaque to you, but they are clear to me and many others. Moreover, the Gospels and the Epistles are the most important parts of the Bible for Christians, but those sections are not the only parts. The Bible for Christians should be as seamless as Jesus’ cloak.

[CynicalBear]

>>The worldly doctrine is entirely dependent upon novel interpretation of opaque prophesy and is directly contradicted by the clear teachings of the Gospels and Epistles.<<

If you believe that your interpretation of forever is much different then anyone I have ever encountered or any dictionary for that matter.

[jjotto]

Christian apologetics is filled with explanations of why ‘forever’ doesn’t really mean ‘forever’. One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.

[RJR_fan]

It would be wonderful if Muslims were to embrace Christianity, but mass conversion is very unlikely. Islam is demonically inspired religion and as such has a violent and potent grip on Muslims. They will not be persuaded to abandon the faith easily. Such an act would take a miracle that is beyond human capacity.

I hope you will join me in praying for exactly that miracle. Before The Wall came down, Soviet Communism looked unassailable, and the "smart" people in the West were constantly cutting secret deals with perceived winning side. Whittaker Chambers felt, when he left The Party, that he'd joined the losing side. Yet, almost overnight, a whole worldview shattered. I was in Ukraine in 1992, and those folks were devastated that the whole justification for their disciplined, sacrificial lives was discredited. They were also eager to hear the Gospel.

Pending such a miracle, I take joy in the progress the Gospel is making today in Iran. More Persians have come to Christ there since 1980 than in the thousand years before. Islam depends on a series of cultural and linguistic firewalls -- but information technology is breaching those.

Meanwhile, millions of the best and brightest young people from Muslim nations are pursuing American degrees. Most are eager to make American friends -- but only 10% or so will see the inside of an American home. Since God has brought them halfway around the world, why not go halfway across town? English is a weird language, and coaching / editing from us can be a career lifeline for them.

[CynicalBear]

>>One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.<<

I would like to hear in what case Biblically that would be true.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Never read a word of John Darby or John Scofield and their opinions mean nothing to me. I do my best to ignore Mr Hagee.

It is universal Christian teaching among Catholics, East Orthodoxy, and all Protestant denominations founded prior to John Darby that the Jews who followed their Messiah, and those Gentiles who joined them, were the sole inheritors of the Abrahamic blessings. Any who reject Christ are "broken off" from the tree of Israel until they return to the fold by faith. DNA without a reciprocating faithfulness to the Covenant counts for nothing.

Prophesies that give the land the Jews and predict the reestablishment of Israel may be opaque to you, but they are clear to me and many others. Moreover, the Gospels and the Epistles are the most important parts of the Bible for Christians, but those sections are not the only parts. The Bible for Christians should be as seamless as Jesus’ cloak.

Re-read the prophesy at the top of this thread and the worldly interpretation which directly contradicts Romans 11, Matthew 3:9, Luke 3:8, John 8:33, etc., etc., etc.

[mas cerveza por favor]

>>One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.<<
I would like to hear in what case Biblically that would be true.

As I understand it, rabbinical Judaism teaches that the Messianic promises of the Old Testament do not apply to Christ or His followers and characterizes the opposing Christian tradition as Replacement Theology or Supersessionism. Hagee and the "Christian" Zionists go along with this rabbinical teaching out of an apparent phobia that disagreement would expose them to charges of "historical Christian anti-Semitism."

[quadrant]

I've read and been told that the views expressed in your second paragraph were thought to correct - at one time. But during my lifetime of over six decades, I've never heard this opinion expressed in any Protestant church I've attended: Southern Baptist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed, or Evangelical. In fact, my church teaches that God loves the Jews and that the reestablishment of Israel is in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
I believe this teaching because I know the character of those of preach and teach it. I know these men would sooner die that teach anything that cannot be substantiated by the Bible. None are Jews or have any reason to support Israel, except the conviction of truth. And I've read the passages you cite. I come to an opinion directly opposed to yours. I accept that if you believe what you write, but I'm certain you have interpreted Scripture incorrectly.

[CynicalBear]

>> Re-read the prophesy at the top of this thread and the worldly interpretation which directly contradicts Romans 11,<<

Pardon me if I am misreading you comment here, I have not paid attention to your view up till now, but I sense you don’t believe that Israel (Jews) are still Gods chosen people and will once again be dealt with on an individual (as a nation) basis during the Tribulation period.

Romans 11 specifically deals with that and explicitly says that the Jews, ie Israel, will be again dealt with as it says “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” Once God determines that the end of the time for the Gentiles has come He will again, for a period of seven years, deal with the Jews as a nation.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Is there any shred of clear Scriptural evidence or Christian tradition to support the modern conceit that non-believing Jews inherit the Abrahamic blessings.

[P-Marlowe]

Unless you are suggesting that a Christ-denying political entity trumps the Son of God Himself ...

FWIW your straw man arguments are irrelevant.

Like it or not the promises made to "Israel" by God were eternal and the promises are attached to the land known as Israel and the descendants of Jacob.

IMHO, there is obviously a Biblical significance to the fact that there is today a place on the land promised to the descendants of Jacob a country called "Israel". I don't know exactly what that significance is, but my biblical studies over the years seems to suggest that it has something to do with Biblical prophecy and the events which will unfold immediately prior to the return of Christ.

If you want to ridicule that position and those who believe it, then that is your prerogative. I just think that if you are going to do so, you ought to use logical arguments rather than logical fallacies.

Carry on.