Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
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What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
5. OMNIPRESENT
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
Thank you for proving there are LURKERS who read these threads and rarely post to them.
WHY won't these LOVING and CARING men reach out to the people who actually follow MORMON scripture (D&C 132) and ALLOW them to be called MORMON?
Since the SLC hierarchy is afraid of the Government and NOT of GOD, THEY should be the ones who CANNOT be called MORMONs: NOT the FUNDAMENTALISTs!
“This is a fact and can not be denied.”
Resty; why haven't you whined about it?
OOPS!!!
Sorry Ladies; my bad!
I didn’t realize that TN typed that for her OWN quotes.
I apologize for not reading closely.
But; I have an excuse or two:
1. It’s early
2. I’ve not read thru the whole thread yet
3. The goats are hungry
4. It rained yesteerday
5. Most importantly - I’m CONFOUNDED!
This continuing to expose MORMON heresy IS of the Lord.
Indeed!
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
What is IT??
They were eating a passover meal: folks can look up in the OT just what it consisted of.
No brainer.
Is the Bible just snippets of individual verses? Do you have to take the Bible as a whole or just in parts?
Here’s the pattern people follow as regards the Bible:
1. I believe X (someone taught me this or I discovered it for myself through research or the input of the Holy Ghost
2. I scour the Bible and find verses supporting X
3. I ignore mitigating verses or verses that contradict what I already believe.
You cannot ignore the whole to the convenience of the parts. It’s like treating a human being as a toenail or tooth. Neither accounts for the whole.
For your belief convenience you accept the Trinity, but to get there one has to ignore the parts of the Bible that refute the Trinity, not the least of which is that the Trinity is never established by the words of God or Jesus in either testament as a doctrine of salvation.
That is believing in the Trinity doesn’t save you. Therefore not believing in the Trinity doesn’t condemn you. Arguments that one doesn’t believe the “right” Jesus because one rejects the Trinity are also illogical.
Look at the Jews. God from the beginning establishes behavior as a reflection of belief. Works matter in Hebrew theology and in modern Jewish theology (Jews constituting 1/12th of Israel). Works is part of salvation. Many modern Christians decry works as a saving sacrament, but Jews don’t. Who is correct?
Jesus never condemns the Pharisees for works or for observing the Law, but for hypocrisy in works and observing the Law.
The Bible, using both the Old and New Testaments, establishes God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son, as God. There isn’t an argument in favor of monotheism in the Bible, just against worshiping false, man-made idols. Jews reject Jesus’ divinity and use monotheism as an argument.
Christians accept Jesus’ divinity and invent the Trinity to reconcile it to monotheism and distinguish it from Roman Theology and other pagan polytheistic systems within the Roman World. These are political and philosophical responses to religious and political realities, not Biblical ones.
In the Bible context matters. Who is the audience, what is the message, and who is the messenger all act in concord to establish the Mind of God, that is God’s intent.
Thank you for PROVING that you haven't read my POSTS about this!
Thank you for PROVING that you haven't read MORMON teaching about this!
I was GOING to say,
"Thank you for PROVING that your brain can hold conflicting ideas in it.", but decided that would be piling on, and I'd get a penalty flag tossed my way.
Yep; you CONTINUELLY miss what is posted!
Yes many of you antis keep trying to smear the LDS with the MANY THINGS Mormon, Inc. has PUBLISHED through the years.
BTW who is that still today attacking the Catholic on the FR forum?
Number 14!
Haven't I done this at LEAST 421 times already??
As I have Love you Love One Another.
All the modern christian churches have no more authority to preach, baptize, or administer any other ordinance of the gospel than the idolatrous Hindoos have.
The system of idolatry, invented by modern christianity, far surpasses in absurdity anything that we have ever heard of.
Orson Pratt
You was Presbyterian; NOT you is MORMON - but you STILL know nothing about JS' claim of what he 'learned' about PRESBYTERIANism!
Although NOT seems to work just as well; for you are always being SHOWN what MORMONism has taught when you claimed it hasn't.
At least you posted TWO scriptures that you KNOW are translated right!
(How can a guy, with his face in his hat, go WRONG?)
Numbers #15 & 17
This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle leader, from the PBS documentary, "The Mormons", declaring unequivocally:
"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."Don't criticize?
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
Let’s take a look at two of your verses and put them into Biblical context. I am not trying to force you to believe something, just showing you that there can be alternative conclusions, OK?
I am not looking to injure your beliefs or testimony. This is, for me, a discussion not an argument or fight.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “... Whoever has seen me has seen the Father...”
Acts 7:55, “But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.”
What did Stephen see? Don’t interpret or attempt to reconcile the two passages at first. Just view them for what they say.
Clearly they are open to interpretation. If you reject the Trinity you see that Stephen saw Jesus Christ and God (not Jesus Christ, but possibly appearing similar or like Jesus Christ): Two personages, not one.
To view those verses that way is not illogical, just not in keeping with what you believe to be true and that’s OK.
Trinitarians reconcile the two by making Stephen’s vision allegorical and not physical, that is “standing on the right hand” isn’t a location, but a metaphor. That’s OK, too.
Each of us has to decide for ourselves which one makes more sense. That confusion exists tells us that there is more to salvation than currently meets the eye. I believe that Jesus doesn’t lie and neither does Stephen. Jesus (the Son of God) and God (the Father, His Father) are not one and the same. I choose the iota. http://www.xefer.com/2002/10/iota
Let’s look at Luke 1:34-35
34And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God.
Here’s Young’s Literal Translation:
34 And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’
35 And the messenger answering said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
The word being translated as “virgin” really means “man” and in this context - “husband”. See here: http://biblos.com/luke/1-34.htm
Mary understands the Angels message to be imminent conception and replies, logically, how can I a human woman and a virgin be pregnant without sexual intercourse with my husband Joseph. This is logical on its face and also proper given that Mary knows the prophecies regarding a soon to come Messiah - a man in the flesh - that will redeem Israel.
The Angel corrects her explaining the method: Luke 1:35
Take a look here at the Greek used: http://biblos.com/luke/1-35.htm
We don’t know the method, but it is miraculous as are all God’s actions. The Greek word used to describe the action is “procreate”. Note also that the scripture is specific. This is God Most High acting and not the Lord God.
You don’t have to agree, you just can see that there are logical and faithful God-loving interpretations that are different from what you believe.
Imagine how this story must have sounded to a Greek speaking Jew. Holy-begotten means “sacred procreation”.
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