99 & 1/2 Won’t Do – A Meditation on Purgatory

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | November 1, 2010 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[presently no screen name]

Of course you do, you’re a Catholic.

[Melian]

Yes, I am. I am proud, thankful, and joyful that I am Catholic. It is a magnificent Church, founded by Christ, that carries on His teachings. The depth and detail and beauty of the Church astound me daily. I am humbly grateful to have been given such a gift as the Eucharist.

[presently no screen name]

I am proud, thankful, and joyful that I am Catholic.

I am proud, thankful and Joyful that I am no longer a Catholic.

It is a magnificent Church

If you are into the demonic..

Founded by Christ, that carries on His teachings.

Show me where in His Word Mary is co-redeemer.

The depth and detail and beauty of the Church astound me daily

Don't feel bad - freedom in Christ is not something everyone wants. Bondage feels better to Catholics. Your focus is on the 'church' - Christians focus ON JESUS!!

[presently no screen name]

I don’t know about you, but I hear and obey Christ’s words before Paul’s.

Paul's words are inspired by the Holy Spirit. You show favoritism on what Scripture you hear/obey first? ((shakes head))

Christ prayed for the dead when He prayed for Lazarus and the Centurian’s servant.

HE COMMANDED the dead to rise. "Lazarus, come forth!" Does that sound like a prayer to you? And you use 'this' as authority to pray to/for the dead. Who taught you that? Run from them!

It is prideful to assume one is saved. It is humble to assume one must actually try to live the way Christ asked us to live— and to know we often fall short.

Spoken like someone in bondage and assign humbleness to it! I might add it is Catholics who are PRIDEFUL in their thinking they can add to their salvation. Also, the dead you pray to - how do you know they are in heaven? Are you assuming in a prideful way that you accuse me of?

However, I do not assume I am saved. I AM SAVED!! And I have The Spirit of God within. I'd say the God I serve is not the god you serve. Your god/your church condemns you and you must pay for your sins. There is no condemnation in My God "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death". Romans 8:1,2

Not sure what your last paragraph means.

How could you not know what my last paragraph means? Jesus is Not Enough - you are taught you need to add to His Gift to make it complete. And it does not speak of one who is very appreciative or thankful. That speaks volumes.

The earliest Church members prayed to and for the dead: their carvings with their prayers to the dead are displayed in the Catacombs. The facts are not on your side.

No one ever disputed Catholics don't pray to the dead or that they have graven imagines. That is a fact and I DON'T want them on my side or anywhere near me. JESUS IS at my side.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

As you see from the above Scripture, the RCC is in direct opposition to God's Word and you seem to like that - you even boast about it. Yet, you have repeatedly stated the RCC teachings are based on Scripture. Please don't defile God's Word by associating it with heresy teaching.

Anyone is prostituting themselves against God when they start seeking supernatural help or guidance from any one else but Him!

"......a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

“So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)

King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.

Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!

The RCC can teach whatever they want (and they do) - but for Catholics to say the RCC teachings/doctrines align up with God's Word is a lie from the pit as has been proven with Scripture after Scripture.

[smvoice]

Grreat post! There are so many things for an RCC to contemplate in your post. Good job, presently!

[presently no screen name]

Hi smvoice! ;)

Is it getting worse or have I reached my limit in reading such offenses against God’s Word?

[FourtySeven]

Good post!

[FourtySeven]

That’s a good explanation of how the promise to the thief can be reconciled with the concept of Purgatory.

I’ve thought myself that it’s also possible he went directly to Heaven (after it’s gates were open) as his time on his cross could be thought of as his own purgation. IOW, it’s entirely possible that his suffering then served to purge him of any attachment to sin he had. Indeed, for him to acknowledge his sin to Christ so freely indicates, at least to me, his attachment to sin at that point was quite low, if not zero. Also, the other theif provides a contrast to this, as he continued to mock Christ (thus still had an attachment to sin).

This concept is, I believe, quite in line with Catholic teaching; I believe it’s entirely acceptable to believe someone may have endured sufficient purgation here on Earth either by their own device or suffering imposed by another. (Terri Schiavo comes to mind here). Thus such people would go directly to Heaven.

[FourtySeven]

It is a very provocative statement. I’ve been trying to find its original source myself, but a Googling of the quote in question provides little fruit. The best I could find for an original citation was “St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).”

But this doesn’t seem to be a primary source. At least I’m not sure what that citation means. Does it mean the quote is found on pages 200-201, 222 of “St Catherine of Siena, SCS”, (whatever that is) or in the other work? Also, the pages mentioned seem odd, as if it’s a reference to the quote, but not the entire writing.

A reading of the entire writing where the excerpt is found is clearly required. From a Googling of the quote in question, it seems clear the topic St Catherine was writing about was obedience to the Pope. Thus the context may be hyperbolic in nature, to drive home a point. Indeed, Catholic teaching itself makes it impossible for the Pope to ever be “Satan Incarnate”. So to believe St Catherine was actually suggesting this as a possibility is illogical, to say the least. Again, she must have been making a broader point using hyperbole.

A thorough reading of the quote in context is required before such a quote can be used to discredit St. Catherine of Siena’s ability to reason.

[Judith Anne]

Frankly, I think the statement was made up. Since RnMomof7 has not given a link to her source for the statement, it becomes clear that either the source, or the statement, or both, are questionable.

[RnMomof7]

Wrong. Paul said clearly that he worked out his salvation every day in fear and trembling.

It is very important to rightly divide the word of God.. to do that one must read the text within its context and not TRY to proof text... 1st Paul NEVER SAID he was "working out HIS salvation"... now lets look at the text..in context

Paul was very fond of the church at Phillipipi..He was their pastor.. this is a sort of good-bye letter to them . Paul was leaving a church he founded and taught and led , he was going to send Timothy to them, but for a time they would be without a pastor. He was giving loving instructions to the church on how to live out their faith (not how to be saved)

. With that in mind, let us look at the text

<< Philippians 2 >>

1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Here Paul is telling them they will have to grow spiritually without him there.. Notice he affirms their salvation, he does not say work to be saved, they are saved and now need to walk in that ... but he comforts their fears of being alone.. not to worry my little ones because IT IS GOD THAT WORKS IN YOU TO DO HIS WILL

He made it very clear it’s not a done deal.

As you can not see he did no such thing ..he affirmed their salvation

Scripture, Christ’s parables, and Paul, support the idea of Purgatory.

You keep saying that but provide no scripture to support purgatory from the mouth of Christ or the apostles..because non exists

[RnMomof7]

"Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him." St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222

[Judith Anne]

That’s not a link.

[RnMomof7]

look it up

[Judith Anne]

Several people have not found any site online. Got a link?

[RnMomof7]

I found it online.. google is your friend..I gave you the source..

[Judith Anne]

Since there has been trouble before, with sources, and since I normally have no trouble finding them, I can only conclude that you do not have one.

[Judith Anne]

Never mind, I apologize, I found the source for your cut-n-paste comment in 41.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Real authoritative....NOT!!!

Another “tract” anti-Catholic bigot ministry.

http://www.lightministries.com/id523.htm#evil_1

The geocities web address given for that quote at the link, however, is no longer working. So, there is no way to check if the link given with the quote is accurate, or to check the context.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic5chp1.html

Looks like junk to me.

[RnMomof7]

Actually it is a quote from a book written by a Catholic

Name:”Apostolic Digest” by Michael MaloneCategory:Common Interest - Religion & SpiritualityDescription:
These masterful quotations single out the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church on a key dogma of the Faith which is now universally denied by nearly everyone. The denial of this dogma, which has been infallibly defined, can be directly linked to the unraveling of every belief of the Catholic Church and the consequent firestorm of sin that is now sweeping the world with ever- increasing fury. No book published during the last 100 years contains more powerful teachings and important truths than this awesome collection of certified and fully-indexed quotations from the Bible, Decrees of Popes and Councils; excerpts from the early Fathers of the Church; citations from hundreds of Doctors of the Church; writings of Saints, Blessed and Venerabili; dozens of Official Catechisms and Indulgence Prayers. Devastating information all taken from books carrying an Imprimatur. No one can remain indifferent to the true Faith after paging through this magnificent work. Each quote is referenced for research. (read less)
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[Melian]

:...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Exactly, he is telling his Philippian church, who are already believers and have accepted Christ as their savior, that they need to continue to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

Your post illustrates my point. They ALREADY believe. In your book, they should be already saved. But Paul is telling them they need to CONTINUE to work out their own INDIVIDUAL salvations with FEAR and TREMBLING. Why fear and tremble? Because it can be lost. They can fall into sin and error and lose the opportunity to achieve Heaven.

It’s no accident that Paul is talking about obedience here. Christ requires obedience to His word. It is logical to assume if one is disobedient to His word, there is a price to pay. Remember, not everyone who calls Him “Lord, Lord” will be saved.

In other words, from Christ’s own mouth, as you asked, we learn that not everyone who believes in Him and calls Him Lord will be saved. More IS required.