Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Right. This is what the Church teaches but you appeared to be advocating the Satan speculation made by some of the Fathers when you said "I'll stick with the early church fathers on this one thank you."
My, my. You sure had to go back far enough. I doubt if Irenus would believe that the Pope is the authoritarian spokeperson of the Church today. The Orthodox certainly don't.
Before the split, all Eastern councils rejected by the Pope were considered invalid by the Eastern Christians.
Yes, but that was when the Church was in it's infancy. But towards the end of his life, Augustine got the message of the gospel. His Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints was a primary mover in my Reformed views (as well as influencing Calvin, Luther and others).
LOL. Protestants tried to hijack the good name of Augustine but that does not mean he approved to them. They were highly selective of Augustine's writings. If those Protestants really admired St. Augustine, they would have remained faithfully Catholic like the good bishop.
The Church does not teach this [sic: homosexuality is a sin].
In one place you tell me that homosexuality isn't a sin
You misquote me. Of course the Church teaches homosexuality is a sin
They look for signs when the only sign we need is the one we've been given - Christ resurrection.
They look for more.
Yet Protestant critic admits the historicity of Peter's line of succession in Rome. That was my only point.
Mainline Protestant denominations also once preached hellfire and brimstone but their teachings has been totally compromised. If you think the doctrine of Hell is not Christlike, you must have never read the Gospels.
As for the Inquisition, you speak with a forked tongue. You love to condemn the Church for its infiltration by homosexuals, but you also condemn the traditional means of rooting out infiltrators. Catholics await the restoration of the Holy Inquisition so that the homosexual priests and bishops may be expelled from office.
INDEED.
Mary was guilty of Polyandry . . . given that Joseph also lived for some time [and, of course, several other normally sired children by Mary--as Scripture clearly indicates rather plainly]
as one of Mary's 2 'husbands.' . . .
Perhaps one hubby took the even days and nights and one Hubby took the odd days and nights?
Or . . .
Oh, I know . . . it's one of those
Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling Matrix Moments.
Wherein Mary engaged in Polyandry 24/7/365 days a year . . . except when she didn't and it was in name only . . . which was after she did . . . which was after she didn't . . . which was after she did . . .
in oder for her to SEIZE THE POWER in typical Jewish Mother style . . . elbowing her way into Heaven as the QUEEN OF HEAVEN . . . taking over Holy Spirit's job of drawing all men to Christ; . . .
taking over Christ's job as the only route to The Father and the only route to Salvation. . .
What a woman!
What an icon!
What an idol!
I can see her stomping around Heaven with her olive branch switch now . . . knocking things into order, finally! How did Heaven EVER MANAGE before she got there with her two hubbys to help support her magnificent halo and carry her sedan chair/throne.
What a typical RC phantasmagorical farce!
Below are the examples
of exalting other deities.
They are real.
They are serious.
They are owned,
operated in,
manifested in,
heart-felt wallowed in
by millions of Roman Catholics around the world.
Pretending otherwise does not change the facts.
White washing it with magicsterical diplospeak
doesn't change the facts.
Rationalizing it with 101 weasel words
doesn't change the facts.
.
.
.
the FACTS are easy enough to see below
for anyone with
more discernment than a gnat's.
.
.
.
Those reading this with any consciousness above comotose
no longer have any excuse.
.
.
.
Holy Spirit will be nudging, urging, forsaking of all such
--ALL HINT OF SUCH--
IGNORING HIS LEADING, NUDGING, URGING
in such matters can be spiritually deadly.
Very spiritually deadly.
.
.
.
ONCE AGAIN,
just a small part of
THE EVIDENCE: .
.
.
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God." .
Well, believe it or not, I agree with that. I am not Lutheran nor affiliated with any specific denomination so I have no dog in the hunt, so to speak. But, by the same token, you must also accept that no man is either all good or all evil. Those who do identify with the Reformed denominations have never, as far as I have seen, proclaim that their founders were infallible, but rather men who felt in their hearts a calling from God to change what they believed had been corrupted by evil influences. I don't doubt for one minute that Luther, a devout Catholic priest, would have stayed in the Church had she shed those influences and returned to true Biblical orthodoxy. That the "powers that be" would not - even though I think Luther was and still is correct in his criticisms - repent of that wrong they had done gave him every reason to leave.
I would not ever consider returning to the Catholic religion because I, too, know the truth about the Gospel that it IS by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that I am saved and not by any works of righteousness that I may do.
I can't help but think that there is just this awful stubbornness or blindness that takes over people and places them in a kind of box. I see it as - and I know you ain't gonna like what I say - a brainwashing effect. I know because I was in it myself. I know the feeling I had when I was about thirteen and we had moved to a new base and I went to my first Mass in the base chapel. I got the timing wrong and instead of a Catholic Mass, I was sitting in a Protestant service. I was so worried that I had sinned but I didn't think I could get up and leave so I sat through the service. I remember the fear that I had done something wrong. I remember the shame in sneaking a half of a donut before Mass when I should have been fasting before communion. I remember confessing before the priest about taking a quarter from my Mom's purse when I was seven. I must have confessed it five or ten times, but I never felt cleansed. That is the kind of life that none of us who were in it want to return to. The guilt, the worry, the fear that I can never be good enough to go to heaven.
But, now, I do know that I am forgiven. I know that I need not ever fear and I know that my goodness or lack of it does not change the fact, and never will, that God loves me and has given me the gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ. I believe that people like Luther also saw the true light of the Gospel and I do not blame him for wanting to change what he saw that was wrong with the faith that he loved so dearly. He wasn't perfect, and none of us are, but he was a courageous man who God used to make a big difference in millions of lives. I respect that man.
Again, where do you get the "previous teaching" part of the definition of ex cathedra?
If there is some powerful interest supporting the error, it may temporarily gain currency. However, any Catholic who detects heresy from ANY source is obligated to resist it.
Did a powerful interest called Pope Honorius promulgate and teach heresy in his official letters, as bishop of Rome, to Sergius, in words "hurtful to the soul", and did that "former Pope of Old Rome, who with the help of the old serpent" scatter "deadly error", or not?
Do you understand how this logic is linear and not at all circular?
It is circular because you simply assume what must proved; namely, that Popes are infallible in their teaching ex cathedra, and therefore it is impossible for any Pope to have erred in a teaching on faith or morals. Regardless of what the historical facts are, all you have to do is claim that any given teaching was not intended it to be a binding statement upon the entire church. If we ask for proof of the dogma we get the dogma as proof, just as you have done with me. It is entirely circular, which is why you completely ignore any historical facts concerning Honorius' anathematization as a heretic.
Cordially,
I’ve found something that is going to blow your mind. We discussed it a few months ago as conjecture, and decided it was wise not to give the RCC any ideas. Well, it seems they’ve had this idea and have been teaching it for a long while. Although it isn’t known to those outside the Church, and maybe not to some inside the Church. But it is guaranteed to make you sit up and say WT.. As soon as I can get an RC to tell us honestly if it is true, I will post it. I’ve always thougt annalex was the most honest and open about RCC teaching/beliefs. But he still hasn’t gotten back to me with this question of the RCC teaching that Mary’s spouse is the Holy Spirit. I’m still waiting for an answer from him about that.
You can’t have something in realty happen and simultaneously not have it happen.
While I agree with you, evidently many RC’s do not.
The Vatican Alice in Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling Matrix Moments create such black holes in theology 24/7/365.
It seems to be more than a habit and beyond a compulsion even . . . well into obsessive ritualized phantasmagorical fantasized dogma farce.
So one second the pseudo-Mary caricature is
Mary Meak and Mild full of grace, graciousness and humble gravity.
The next second she’s stomping into hell terrifying all the demons and taking charge of the dark abode.
So Quantum Mary Magnificent must fit right into the Alice in Wonderland Reality Mangling Matrix Moments sold by the case out of the Vatican Indulgences office.
That should be interesting alright.
Perhaps someone could then tell us . . . just who did Holy Spirit apply to for a special INDULGENCE to serve as one of Mary’s 2 hubbys?
Or maybe the contention will be that
Mary doesn’t have 2 hubbys per the Catechism
only
per the beliefs of a huge percentage of the leadership and the sheeple . . . applauded by the hierarchy . . .
yet another of those . . . WE BELIEVE IT EXCEPT WHEN WE DON’T . . . i.e. except when it’s inconvenient when arguing with Proddys.
Well, they definitely believe that Mary’s spouse is the Holy Spirit. And act surprised when a non-Catholic is outraged by that. But it does answer the question as to why RCs won’t admit that she had other children. She couldn’t. She was married to the Holy Spirit...He was her true spouse.
WHICH IS AN OUTRAGEOUS-TO-THE-MAX NOTION.
BLASPHEMOUS, ACTUALLY.
It brings Holy Spirit down to Mary’s level in much the same fashion
the term
“MOTHER OF GOD”
brings God down to man’s level.
Amen, Quix. Where will it end? It just keeps getting worse and worse. And the next one is going to be worse yet.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to in terms of the next one . . . that’s going to be worse yet.
I know they continue to astound me with worse piled upon top of worse.
Amen to that. As is man so are the institutions of man. I don't begrudge anyone rejecting Catholicism in favor of a Reformed denomination. I don't begrudge anyone citing the specific reasons why as long as they honestly portray Catholic teachings. Too often, though, I see ex-Catholics projecting their poor knowledge of the Catechism into actual Church teachings and I see anti-Catholics outright lying about what the Church does or does not teach. When that happens I have to correct that. I do not worry that the Church will not stand up to any scrutiny of its actual teachings, but to mischaracterize and lie about the Church is theft from both the Church and those lead astray.
Natural Law wrote:
“ I don’t begrudge anyone rejecting Catholicism in favor of a Reformed denomination. I don’t begrudge anyone citing the specific reasons why as long as they honestly portray Catholic teachings. “
I’m glad to hear you say this. I try to be very careful in what I say about the teachings of the Catholic Church, and do not enjoy seeing it trashed for that of which it is not guilty. However, I do note that some Catholics have a habit of playing fast and loose with, for example, Lutheran doctrine. Do you expect of Catholics the same standards as you require of Protestants here? And will you follow them yourself and try to get others to do the same?
Just curious.
"The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let everyone who hears say, 'Come.' And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift." Revelations 22:17
"Saint Ephrem the Syrian was probably the first early Christian to refer to Mary as the Bride of Christ...He was followed by the likes of Saint Peter Chrysologus, Rupert of Deutz, and Godfrey of Admont." See the book by Michael O'Carroll, titled "'Spouse of God', Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary", p 333 (Wilmington, DE: Glazier, 1982).
“...(Mary is) the unique bridal, permanent helpmate and associate of Christ, who is the Head of the whole Church and world, in the entire work of redemption...” Fr. J. Kentenich, in Der Marianische Priester, p 38 (1941).
"The relation of the mother to her divine Son must be traced not alone to the mother's natural activity, but primarily to the activity of her divine Son Himself, who makes and accepts her as His mother, and gives Himself to her as her Son....Consequently the relation of the mother to the divine Son appears as a marriage with His divine person. Here now the Bridegroom gives Himself to the bride as her Son and dwells in her in virtue of this gift." (Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeben, in Mariology, vol. 1, p 162-163 ("nihil obstat" by Innocentius Swoboda, O. F. M. Censor Librorum, "imprimatur" by Josephus E. Ritter, S.T.D., Archiepiscopus).
"(The Divine Being) Who is so singularly with Mary is the Lord Whose most beautiful spouse Mary is." St. Bonaventure, quoted in "Virgin Wholly Marvelous: Praises of Our Lady by the Popes, Councils, Saints and Doctors of the Church", Editor is David Supple (Still River, MA: Ravengate, 1981): p 37.
"Mary, as united with the Logos, is taken into complete possession by him; the Logos, as infused and implanted in her, gives himself to her and takes her to himself as partner and helper, in the closest, strictest, and most lasting community of life." (Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeben, in Mariology, vol. 1, p 189 ("nihil obstat" by Innocentius Swoboda, O. F. M. Censor Librorum, "imprimatur" by Josephus E. Ritter, S.T.D., Archiepiscopus).
"As the new 'daughter of Zion' Mary in fact is particularly suited to entering into the spousal Covenant with God. More and better than any member of the Chosen People, she can offer the Lord the true heart of a Bride." Pope John Paul II, in Mary Responds to God with Spousal Love, General Audience in May 1, 1996, #5.
"Through her divine maternity, Mary in a certain way entered the divine family as a spouse who enters a royal home. With regard to the Father she became the first born daughter: I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures (Ecclus 24:5). With regard to the Son, she was a mother; with regard to the Holy Spirit, she was a bride." Saint Alphonsus Liguori, in The Glories and Virtues of Mary, p. 43.
"...Unite, then, Venerable Brethren, your prayers with Ours, and at your exhortation let all Christian peoples add their prayers also, invoking the powerful and ever-acceptable intercession of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Spirit, so that she is justly called His Spouse. Her intercession was of great avail both in the mystery of the Incarnation and in the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles." Pope Leo XIII, in Divinum illud Munus, Encyclical promulgated on May 9,1897, #14.
“She (Mary) is a virgin who ‘keeps whole and pure the fidelity she has pledged to her Spouse’...The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation.” Pope John Paul II, in Redemptoris Mater (On the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church), Encyclical promulgated on March 25, 1987, #5, 26).
“Let us turn our gaze to Mary, Christ’s first disciple, Spouse of the Holy Spirit and Mother of the Church, who was with the Apostles at the first Pentecost, so that she will help us to learn from her fiat docility to the voice of the Spirit.” Pope John Paul II, in his speech to the “World Congress of Ecclesial Movements and New Communities,” on May 27, 1998.
Let us praise and thank the Holy Spirit, Who took her for His spouse. "R. Amen. Say an 'Our Father'." St. Joseph Calasanctius, Found in the Raccolta, quoted in "Mary:The Crown of Twelve Stars".
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