Posted on 10/25/2010 10:39:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
1. Key events in the revealing of the doctrine of vicarious work for the dead
A. Keys restored by Elijah. On April 3, 1836, the prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple, and restored “the keys of this dispensation” “to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to their fathers.” [D&C 110:13-16] His last-days coming was prophesied by Malachi, and that prophecy was repeated by Moroni [Mal. 4:5-6; JS–H 1:36-39; D&C 2:1. See D&C 138:46-48] “He conferred the sealing power of the priesthood on Joseph Smith. This power makes possible eternal marriage, sealings to parents, and temple ordinance work for the dead.” {Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 1999, p. 228]
B.The doctrine of Baptism for the Dead announced. Joseph Smith announced the privilege of saints being baptized for their dead on August 15, 1840, at the funeral of Seymour Brunson. D&C 124:29-39, given January 19, 1841, gave further instructions. [See Gospel Doctrine Lesson 30]
C. The necessity of work for the dead revealed. D&C 128, given September 6, 1842, reveals that “their salvation is necessary for our salvation,” and “they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.” [D&C 128:15; See Heb. 11:40.]
D. The instruction to seal our families together given. “During the April 1894 general conference, President Woodruff announced that he had received a revelation about genealogical work. He declared that God wanted the Latter-day Saints ‘to trace their genealogies as far as they can, and to be sealed to their fathers and mothers. Have the children sealed to their parents and run this chain through as far as you can get it. . . . This is the will of the Lord to his people,’ he said, “and I think when you come to reflect upon it you will find it to be true.’” [Our Heritage, p. 101]
E. The vision of the redemption of the dead was given. On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith received the glorious vision which is now D&C 138. He was shown how the Lord visited the righteous spirits [D&C 138:12-15] [in Paradise in] the Spirit World and appointed missionaries to preach the gospel [D&C 138:29-37] to those who had not yet received the gospel [D&C 138:20-22].
F. Faithful saints of this dispensation will preach the gospel in the spirit world. In his Vision of the Redemption of the Dead, President Joseph F. Smith also saw that “faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption” [D&C 138:57].
G. For clarification concerning the separate areas of Paradise, the Spirit Prison and Hell, see Duane S. Crowther, Life Everlasting, 1997 Revised Edition, pp. 275-298.
2. Numerous spiritual manifestations and visitations from beyond the veil show the need, the urgency, and our eternal responsibility to perform vicarious work for the dead
A. The experience of Frederick William Hurst: “Frederick William Hurst was working as a gold miner in Australia when he first heard Latter-day Saint missionaries preach the restored gospel. He and his brother Charles were baptized in January 1854. He tried to help his other family members become converted, but they rejected him and the truths he taught. Fred settled in Salt Lake City four years after joining the Church, and he served faithfully as a missionary in several different countries. He also worked as a painter in the Salt Lake Temple. In one of his final journal entries, he wrote: ‘Along about the 1st of March, 1893, I found myself alone in the dining room, all had gone to bed. I was sitting at the table when to my great surprise my elder brother Alfred walked in and sat down opposite me at the table and smiled. I said to him (he looked so natural): “When did you arrive in Utah?” He said, “I have just come from the Spirit World, this is not my body that you see, it is lying in the tomb. I want to tell you that when you were on your mission you told me many things about the Gospel, and the hereafter, and about the Spirit World being as real and tangible as the earth. I could not believe you, but when I died and went there and saw for myself I realized that you had told the truth. I attended the Mormon meetings.” He raised his hand and said with much warmth: “I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart. I believe in faith, repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, but that is as far as I can go. I look to you to do the work for me in the temple. . . . You are watched closely. . . . We are all looking to you as our head in this great work. I want to tell you that there are a great many spirits who weep and mourn because they have relatives in the Church here who are careless and are doing nothing for them.” (Diary of Frederick William Hurst, comp. Samuel H. and Ida Hurst [1961], 204).” [Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 1999, pp. 226-227]
B. The experience of Bishop Henry Ballard: “In May, 1884, Bishop Henry Ballard of the Logan Second Ward was signing temple recommends at his home. Henry’s nine-year-old daughter, who was talking with friends on the sidewalk near her home, saw two elderly men approaching. They called to her, handed her a newspaper, and told her to take it to her father. The girl did as she was asked. Bishop Ballard saw that the paper, the Newbury Weekly News, published in England, contained the names of more than 60 of his and his father’s acquaintances, along with genealogical information. This newspaper, dated 15 May 1884, had been given to him only three days after it was printed. In a time long before air transportation, when mail took several weeks to get from England to western America, this was a miracle. The next day, Bishop Ballard took the newspaper to the temple and told the story of its arrival to Marriner W. Merrill, the temple president. President Merrill declared, ‘Brother Ballard, someone on the other side is anxious for their work to be done and they knew that you would do it if this paper got into your hands.’ This newspaper is preserved in the Church Historical Library in Salt Lake City, Utah.” [Our Heritage, p. 99]
C. Other accounts, from Life Everlasting:
1. James W. LeSueur’s Spirit Prison visit: Families preach to their kindred dead. (288-90)
2. President Rudger Clawson: Unsealed married couples must live separately (312)
3. Eliza Neville’s visit from Grandmother Stiff: Must be a perfect link back to Adam (310-11)
4. Horatio Pickett, F.T. Pomeroy, Joseph H. Smith, J. Hatten Carpenter: Spirits are [sometimes] present when vicarious ordinances are performed (317-321)
5. Bertha Call’s experience: Spirits can take actions to correct genealogical errors and omissions (323-24)
6. John M. Lang’s angelic manifestation: Recording angels keep a perfect record (309-10)
7. Lerona A. Wilson’s warning from her deceased father: Do the family’s genealogy and temple work or be moved out of the way for someone else to do it (314-15)
8. President Wilford Woodruff: The spirits of the dead will seek after you to see that their redemptive ordinances are done (315-16)
The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not
TN, we have no idea if they accept the baptism or not. We do not try to communicate with the dead. Period, end of story.
__________________________________________
Thank you Rip for being somewhat honest...
see now that wasnt hard was it ???
WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE DEAD ACCEPT IT OR NOT.
_______________________________________________
THEN WHY DEAD DUNK ???
sigh.
This is the same answer I gave way up there earlier in the thread.
But, moving on, does this mean you are going to answer mine now?
The baptism by proxy is done for their behalf, by the living.
________________________________________
See how that doesnt make a lick of sense ???
Since as you said...
“WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE DEAD ACCEPT IT OR NOT.” (Rip, October 25, 2010)
WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE DEAD ACCEPT IT OR NOT.
_______________________________________________
THEN WHY DEAD DUNK ???
________________________________
Because God loves all his children and given them opportunities to accept the gospel or not. We don’t need to know, we have no way of knowing. That’s not important to us, it is to them and it is to God.
I’ve wasted enough time here. If you ever get around to answering why Jesus preached the gospel to the dead, be sure to PM me. I’m done on this thread. Time to get back to life.
PD the occult is always Satanic...
Says you. If that is the definition you chose then no. Of course the LDS Church has no ties to the occult.
You cast your logic before swine so to speak. They have no interest. Good job though I enjoyed it.
“Much ado about nothing. Your misguided opinions and nothing more.”
You talk big.
Post small.
All hat.
No cattle.
No facts
No evidence
No logical argument
Just feelings to back up your feelings.
Yet in the midst of the mormon cult is a continuing
tie to the occult. Halloween is a perfect time to
examine the occult connections with mormonism.
It is understandable that you, as a member who
presumably bases truth on feelings, would defend
the cult and minimize the occult connections.
ampu
Stop beating around the bush, Rip...
Answer the question I first asked you ...
You made a statement in Post #21 to Paragon Defender...presumably something you believe...
“The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.”
In Post #21 I asked you to explain what you said...I said...
“OK give us a blow by blow description of how that works...
Just your normal” every day scenerio of your typical “event” will do...
1 The person dies
2 ????
3 ???
and so on...
Lights camera action...”
1. Either you know and will explain the process
2. or you dont know and will admit that
3. or its a mormon secret and you will say so...
Actually I asked you because you need to understand just what you are believing...
Either you can explain your beliefs and give scripture for them...
or you need to examine further what you believe..
Courtesy PING to Paragon Defender
lol obvious troll bait is..... obvious.
No cattle.
No facts
No evidence
No logical argument
All provided
Always ignored
why Christ preached to the spirits in prison? What’s the point, from a “this life is all there is” Evangelical perspective?
____________________________________________________
Christian perspective: Put the verse back into the passage so it can be read in context..
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached/proclaimed to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. 1 Peter 3:22
1. We see from this scripture that those spirits in prison were the people Jesus preached to in the Spirit during the time of Noah
2. These people had been preached to already by Noah and Jesus.
3. They didnt need to be preached to again and they werent.
4. When Jesus went in the Spirit to preach to them while the Ark was being built, He didnt go in the flesh
5. These people knew about God through Noah for many years
6. They chose to disobey God when He gave them a chance to be saved
7. These people were not saved out of “spirit prison”
8. It is the death on the Cross of the LORD Jesus Christ and His resurrection that saves us
9 Jesus has gone on to Heaven and doesnt preach salvation to the dead spirits in prison (Hell)
10 This scripture says nothing about saving people through proxy dead dunking
THEN WHY DEAD DUNK ???
________________________________
Because God loves all his children and given them opportunities to accept the gospel or not.
____________________________________________________
Yes He does...
But not after we are dead...
While we are alive and are free to make that decision...
There is nothing after death but the Judgement...
It's real simple, Rip. Jesus Christ is Lord of the living on this earth as well as the living beyond this earth. Jesus as Lord can beckon anyone into His immediate Presence at any time.
On the other hand, Mormon leaders are "lord" of no one--the living on this earth or those beyond. They have NO authority to beckon anyone from beyond into their presence!
The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them...
As this series of articles shows, the Mormons do converse with the dead...and converse often...all "prayer" is is conversing with God.
I have to wonder how these people who trash the LDS think of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after his death. Why did he do this, if it’s all over after this life?
The prophet Isaiah: “Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for [God’s] faithfulness” (Isaiah 38:18).
The apostle Paul: “We . . . urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain—for He says, ‘At the acceptable time I listened to you, and on the day of salvation I helped you.’ Behold, now is ‘the acceptable time,’ behold, now is ‘the day of salvation’” (2 Corinthians 6:1, 2).
If you're not going to take these and other Bible passages (like Heb. 9:27, etc.) at face value, then why won't you believe the Book of Mormon. For example:
Alma 34:32, 34: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors”...“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.”
Peter narrowed the audience of who Jesus spoke to-- the disobedient spirits from Noah's day (1 Pet. 3:20). Mormon leaders have broadened it without warrant.
Only a small fraction of God’s children have ever heard of the gospel or even Christ.
And guess what? If you thrown in the entire genealogical records that the Lds church has loaded up, it's still only a small % of those who have ever lived!
Plus Mormons don't even baptize children under age 8...think of all the children who have died 7 & under and the 50 million aborted alone in this country. The Mormon temple "system" doesn't even address them!!!!
I’ve wasted enough time here. If you ever get around to answering why Jesus preached the gospel to the dead,
_______________________________________
1 I have never said He did Preach” to the dead..
2. The LORD Jesus Chrsit never did preach salvation to the dead in hell...
3. When the LORD Jesus Christ died the righteous Jewish dead came out of the graves because the power of God was so strong...
4. But they were not dead spirits in prison
5. Yes I can understand why you would want to leave the field of honorable combat against a girl with your tail between your legs..
I’ve wasted enough time here. If you ever get around to answering why Jesus preached the gospel to the dead,
_______________________________________
From your own book of mormon
Alma 34:32, 34: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors”...
You keep posting that you “provided” facts, evidence and
logical argument. You have not.
It calls to mind what Inigo Montoya said in The Princess Bride:
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.”
Do you have 6 fingers on one hand, by any chance?
BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD
Baptism for the dead is usually performed by Mormon youths between the ages of twelve and eighteen. Dressed in white clothes, the youth enters the baptismal font and stands upright. Using his (her) left hand, he (she) grasps his (her) own right wrist, and uses the fingers of the right hand to hold the nose shut while being immersed. The person performing the baptism stands at the left side of the youth and grasps the youth’s right hand with his left hand. He then raises his right arm to an angle of ninety degrees ands repeats the baptismal prayer. Following the prayer, he places his right hand on the youth’s back and supports him (her) during immersion, raising the youth quickly out of the water to an upright position again, when the ceremony is repeated several more times on behalf of other deceased persons.
Brother _______, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
CONFIRMATION OF THE DEAD
Following baptism, the deceased must be confirmed a member of the Mormon Church. This ceremony does not have to be performed by the same proxy by the baptism, and usually isn’t. The proxy sits in a chair, and two Mormon Elders place their hands on the proxy’s head, and repeat the following, for each deceased person.
Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost. Amen.
.ORDINATION OF THE DEAD
This ceremony gives the Priesthood to the deceased.
Brother _______, having authority, we lay our hands upon your head, and confer upon you the Melchizedek Priesthood and ordain you an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and seal upon you every grace, gift and authority appertaining to this office in the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, for and in his behalf, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
CONFIRMATION OF THE DEAD
Following baptism, the deceased must be confirmed a member of the Mormon Church. This ceremony does not have to be performed by the same proxy by the baptism, and usually isn’t. The proxy sits in a chair, and two Mormon Elders place their hands on the proxy’s head, and repeat the following, for each deceased person.
Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost. Amen.
_______________________________________________
So this is done after the dead dunking eventhough the mormons DO NOT have any way of knowing if the dead dunking was accepted or not..
CONFIRMATION OF THE DEAD
Following baptism, the deceased must be confirmed a member of the Mormon Church. This ceremony does not have to be performed by the same proxy by the baptism, and usually isn’t. The proxy sits in a chair, and two Mormon Elders place their hands on the proxy’s head, and repeat the following, for each deceased person.
Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost. Amen.
_______________________________________________
So this is done after the dead dunking eventhough the mormons DO NOT have any way of knowing if the dead dunking and the confimation for the dead was accepted by the dead person or not..
Yep. But that's just another insignificant little detail that mormons neglect to admit to.
Of course, you have to remember that mormons believe that the dead are just waiting for THEM to come along and save them, so why would they refuse the ordinances? Just more of the built-in arrogance of mormonism.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.