Posted on 10/25/2010 10:39:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
1. Key events in the revealing of the doctrine of vicarious work for the dead
A. Keys restored by Elijah. On April 3, 1836, the prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple, and restored “the keys of this dispensation” “to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to their fathers.” [D&C 110:13-16] His last-days coming was prophesied by Malachi, and that prophecy was repeated by Moroni [Mal. 4:5-6; JS–H 1:36-39; D&C 2:1. See D&C 138:46-48] “He conferred the sealing power of the priesthood on Joseph Smith. This power makes possible eternal marriage, sealings to parents, and temple ordinance work for the dead.” {Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 1999, p. 228]
B.The doctrine of Baptism for the Dead announced. Joseph Smith announced the privilege of saints being baptized for their dead on August 15, 1840, at the funeral of Seymour Brunson. D&C 124:29-39, given January 19, 1841, gave further instructions. [See Gospel Doctrine Lesson 30]
C. The necessity of work for the dead revealed. D&C 128, given September 6, 1842, reveals that “their salvation is necessary for our salvation,” and “they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.” [D&C 128:15; See Heb. 11:40.]
D. The instruction to seal our families together given. “During the April 1894 general conference, President Woodruff announced that he had received a revelation about genealogical work. He declared that God wanted the Latter-day Saints ‘to trace their genealogies as far as they can, and to be sealed to their fathers and mothers. Have the children sealed to their parents and run this chain through as far as you can get it. . . . This is the will of the Lord to his people,’ he said, “and I think when you come to reflect upon it you will find it to be true.’” [Our Heritage, p. 101]
E. The vision of the redemption of the dead was given. On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith received the glorious vision which is now D&C 138. He was shown how the Lord visited the righteous spirits [D&C 138:12-15] [in Paradise in] the Spirit World and appointed missionaries to preach the gospel [D&C 138:29-37] to those who had not yet received the gospel [D&C 138:20-22].
F. Faithful saints of this dispensation will preach the gospel in the spirit world. In his Vision of the Redemption of the Dead, President Joseph F. Smith also saw that “faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption” [D&C 138:57].
G. For clarification concerning the separate areas of Paradise, the Spirit Prison and Hell, see Duane S. Crowther, Life Everlasting, 1997 Revised Edition, pp. 275-298.
2. Numerous spiritual manifestations and visitations from beyond the veil show the need, the urgency, and our eternal responsibility to perform vicarious work for the dead
A. The experience of Frederick William Hurst: “Frederick William Hurst was working as a gold miner in Australia when he first heard Latter-day Saint missionaries preach the restored gospel. He and his brother Charles were baptized in January 1854. He tried to help his other family members become converted, but they rejected him and the truths he taught. Fred settled in Salt Lake City four years after joining the Church, and he served faithfully as a missionary in several different countries. He also worked as a painter in the Salt Lake Temple. In one of his final journal entries, he wrote: ‘Along about the 1st of March, 1893, I found myself alone in the dining room, all had gone to bed. I was sitting at the table when to my great surprise my elder brother Alfred walked in and sat down opposite me at the table and smiled. I said to him (he looked so natural): “When did you arrive in Utah?” He said, “I have just come from the Spirit World, this is not my body that you see, it is lying in the tomb. I want to tell you that when you were on your mission you told me many things about the Gospel, and the hereafter, and about the Spirit World being as real and tangible as the earth. I could not believe you, but when I died and went there and saw for myself I realized that you had told the truth. I attended the Mormon meetings.” He raised his hand and said with much warmth: “I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart. I believe in faith, repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, but that is as far as I can go. I look to you to do the work for me in the temple. . . . You are watched closely. . . . We are all looking to you as our head in this great work. I want to tell you that there are a great many spirits who weep and mourn because they have relatives in the Church here who are careless and are doing nothing for them.” (Diary of Frederick William Hurst, comp. Samuel H. and Ida Hurst [1961], 204).” [Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 1999, pp. 226-227]
B. The experience of Bishop Henry Ballard: “In May, 1884, Bishop Henry Ballard of the Logan Second Ward was signing temple recommends at his home. Henry’s nine-year-old daughter, who was talking with friends on the sidewalk near her home, saw two elderly men approaching. They called to her, handed her a newspaper, and told her to take it to her father. The girl did as she was asked. Bishop Ballard saw that the paper, the Newbury Weekly News, published in England, contained the names of more than 60 of his and his father’s acquaintances, along with genealogical information. This newspaper, dated 15 May 1884, had been given to him only three days after it was printed. In a time long before air transportation, when mail took several weeks to get from England to western America, this was a miracle. The next day, Bishop Ballard took the newspaper to the temple and told the story of its arrival to Marriner W. Merrill, the temple president. President Merrill declared, ‘Brother Ballard, someone on the other side is anxious for their work to be done and they knew that you would do it if this paper got into your hands.’ This newspaper is preserved in the Church Historical Library in Salt Lake City, Utah.” [Our Heritage, p. 99]
C. Other accounts, from Life Everlasting:
1. James W. LeSueur’s Spirit Prison visit: Families preach to their kindred dead. (288-90)
2. President Rudger Clawson: Unsealed married couples must live separately (312)
3. Eliza Neville’s visit from Grandmother Stiff: Must be a perfect link back to Adam (310-11)
4. Horatio Pickett, F.T. Pomeroy, Joseph H. Smith, J. Hatten Carpenter: Spirits are [sometimes] present when vicarious ordinances are performed (317-321)
5. Bertha Call’s experience: Spirits can take actions to correct genealogical errors and omissions (323-24)
6. John M. Lang’s angelic manifestation: Recording angels keep a perfect record (309-10)
7. Lerona A. Wilson’s warning from her deceased father: Do the family’s genealogy and temple work or be moved out of the way for someone else to do it (314-15)
8. President Wilford Woodruff: The spirits of the dead will seek after you to see that their redemptive ordinances are done (315-16)
There are those who would call evil good and good evil.
These same people would also have a hard time with Moses and Elijah appearing as disembodied spirits to Peter, James and John on the Mt. of Transfiguration with Christ.
The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.
I have to wonder how these people who trash the LDS think of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after his death. Why did he do this, if it’s all over after this life? Only a small fraction of God’s children have ever heard of the gospel or even Christ. One can’t pick and choose from the bible or the gospel. It’s not a buffet table to take what we don’t like and leave the rest. It’s all or nothing.
The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.
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OK give us a blow by blow description of how that works...
Just your normal” every day scenerio of your typical “event” will do...
1 The person dies
2 ????
3 ???
and so on...
Lights camera action...
2. Christ preaches to that person in spirit prison.
- 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
- 1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
3. The essential ordinance of baptism is preformed by proxy, some accept it, some do not.
- 1 Corinthians 15:
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? I know how you feel about Mormons and Mormonism TN, you've made that crystal clear. I know you don't agree with our doctrine, but I'm not here to debate this endlessly with you, that does neither of us any good. Just providing the lurkers a reference point for our beliefs. That is all.
The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.
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Thanks for your info on “Christ” but I asked about this...
I never mentioned anyone or thing other than the mormons..
You said the mormons do the work for the dead...
How does that go ???
Ok then, if you wish me to continue, I’ll answer if you answer why Christ preached to the spirits in prison? What’s the point, from a “this life is all there is” Evangelical perspective?
1. The person dies.
2. Christ preaches to that person in spirit prison.
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The LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible has been back in Heaven now for 2,000 years...
Since He is not in any “spirit prison” who or what is it that is doing the preaching ???
and who or what preached to Hinckley when he died ???
Time is not relevant to God.
Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison?
And who were these spirits in prison?
Stop beating around the bush, Rip...
Answer the question I first asked you ...
You made a statement in Post #21 to Paragon Defender...presumably something you believe...
“The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.”
In Post #21 I asked you to explain what you said...I said...
“OK give us a blow by blow description of how that works...
Just your normal” every day scenerio of your typical “event” will do...
1 The person dies
2 ????
3 ???
and so on...
Lights camera action...”
1. Either you know and will explain the process
2. or you dont know and will admit that
3. or its a mormon secret and you will say so...
Actually I asked you because you need to understand just what you are believing...
Either you can explain your beliefs and give scripture for them...
or you need to examine further what you believe..
Courtesy PING to Paragon Defender
PD the occult is always Satanic...
You are free to answer my question if you can, but I've never seen an EV who could answer why Christ did what he did among spirits in prison.
To answer yours, it's simple. The person baptizing by proxy for someone who has passed on, takes that person into a font, and repeating the baptismal prayer the same way for a living ordinance, except with the addition of these words:
“_____________, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you “for and in behalf of” ______________, who is dead. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
That's the baptism by proxy. It's pretty simple.
Now, I'll ask again... why did Jesus take the gospel to those spirits who were dead? To what end?
Popcorn placemarker
I would advise against extra butter on the popcorn. It’s already a bit greasy and slippery in here as it is. ;-)
You spin what we are saying to no end.
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DUH
Kid ya havent said anything yet...
and I sure didnt do any spin...
theres been nothing to spin...
So.....
You report...then we’ll seee...
Still waiting for you to say something...
I answered your question. Now please answer mine.
Why was Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after his death?
OK I found a bit of an answer buried in #31
You saidf...
“To answer yours, it’s simple. The person baptizing by proxy for someone who has passed on, takes that person into a font, and repeating the baptismal prayer the same way for a living ordinance, except with the addition of these words:
“_____________, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you “for and in behalf of” ______________, who is dead. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
That’s the baptism by proxy. It’s pretty simple.” (Rip)
But Rip, you didnt answer what you had originally posted
“The Mormons don’t pray to the dead, they do their work for them, and they can choose to accept it or not.”
“THEY CAN CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT OR NOT”
How is this bit done ???
This is the dead person, right ???
Obviously this cant be done in proxy by a live person ...
so here we go Rip...
I’ll write slowly...
1. How does the D-E-A-D person find out that someone (a L-I-V-E person)”did” this for him ???
2. How is he or she (the D-E-A-D person) asked (by a L-I-V-E person) whether or not he or she (the D-E-A-D person) “accepted” what was done ???
3. How do the L-I-V-I-N-G people find out what answer the D-E-A-D person gave ???
Over to you kid...
Why was Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after his death?
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You have a wonderful answer due you after I get the rest of my answer to the dead dunking question
Tennessee Nana
TN, we have no idea if they accept the baptism or not. We do not try to communicate with the dead. Period, end of story.
The baptism by proxy is done for their behalf, by the living. They can choose to accept it or deny it, it’s all based on agency. That’s it.
Now, I’ll ask yet again. Why did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison?
And you can write as slowly as you can, it doesn’t change the answer. WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE DEAD ACCEPT IT OR NOT.
Does the uppercase help you understand our position better?
You have a wonderful answer due you after I get the rest of my answer to the dead dunking question
Tennessee Nana
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Great, I’m waiting.
I’ll ask again. Why did Jesus go to the spirits in prison and preach the gospel to the dead?
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