Posted on 10/25/2010 9:27:38 AM PDT by GonzoII
Then how do the mentally retarded enter heaven seeing that they cannot exercise an act of faith and yet Christ came to save everyone?
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and all my friends and I at some point responded to an altar call and were baptized. I was 9 years old at the time and looking back don't believe for a moment that I had a true conversion at the time, but wanted to be baptized because it seemed the "right time". I didn't actually start walking with the Lord until I was an adult. I wonder how many of those friends are actually walking with the Lord right now. I have siblings who answered an altar call and were baptized when they were kids as well who are in no way living a Christian life nor do they profess Christ anymore.
I also know of adults who have been baptized over and over again because the last one wasn't real, but this latest one is the real thing and so on and so on.
As a recovering baptist, it took me a long time and study to accept infant baptism, but looking at covenant theology it stands to reason that just as God included children in the promise via circumcision, so he also would include them in the promise via baptism. "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12
That is perhaps the greatest blessing of the atonement. For the forgiveness of our sins applies to everyone.
see Mark 10:13-15, They brought young children to Him... Suffer the little children to come to me....Whoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he stall not enter..
Most translations today state infant instead of young or little children as that is a better translation.. Obviously this implies that infants can have faith..
Ergo, Ephesians 2:8-10 - it is by Grace we have been saved - receiving that which cannot be earned...pure and simple.
Also note the REAL water that saved Noe being called the LIKE FORM by Peter:
"...Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by
So babies have an unclear consciousness? Where does this verse state that children are baptized? Feel free to search both old and new Testaments ... Infant baptism is a relatively new construct.
My research material is at home, I can share if you like, but it will need to be this evening.
Well, let’s put this article right up there on the Top 5 list for sloppy prooftexting and sorry excuse for exegesis.
Using this method, a person could cut and paste an argument for any silly thing in the world.
Looky here, Mama, I got all these verses that, when I put em all together in a special line-up and squint one eye, it tells me that yer Aunt Imogene is the second coming of Moses’ sister Miriam. Shazam.
“I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His Gifts, sanctifed and kept me in the true faith. Explanation to the third article of the Apostle Creed... Eph 2:8&9”By Grace are you saved through faith and that not of your selves. It is a Gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.
Yes baptism through which we receive grace is a gift. I said nothing about it being earned., and it's requirement cannot be more clearly stated than it already is in Scripture.
Interesting.
Agree. I knew a Lutheran pastor who did some chaplaincy work in a Baptist Hospital in Nashville and whenver there was dought about survival of the infant because complications, they would have him baptize their child just to play it safe. I always found that interesting.
Agree. I knew a Lutheran pastor who did some chaplaincy work in a Baptist Hospital in Nashville and whenver there was dought about survival of the infant because complications, they would have him baptize their child just to play it safe. I always found that interesting.
I'm not sure what you consider new:
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Repentance is for those over the age of reason, since only those are capable of sin. A baby is not capable of commiting personal sin.
In infant Baptism, Original Sin, which all men naturally inherit, is washed away. In adults, both Original Sin and personal sin is washed away.
Since God gave parents authority over their children, they have the authority not only to name them, but also to speak in their name.
I think Gonzo gave you examples of where Infants were baptized in the Bible and in other historians of the early Christian Church.
Infant baptism in the New Testament
Does the Bible say that infants and young people can be baptized? There are some good indications. Lydia was converted with all her household (Acts 16:15). The expression with all one’s household in Jewish usage meant the inclusion, not only of children but of servants. The jailer of Paul and Silas was converted by them. We are told that without delay, he and all his household were baptized (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, Yes, and I did baptize the household of Stephanas (1 Cor 1:16). In the case of the jailer, He and all his must refer to himself and at least two others. If it were just the jailer and his wife it would read he and his wife, but it says He and all his, which must include children, as well. The scripture evidence here leans in favor of infant baptism. There is nothing in the Bible that says infants and young children were unsuited to Baptism. Infant baptism in the early Church.
Fundamentalists do not pay much attention to historical evidence, yet early Christian practice clearly shows that infants were baptized. Origen, for instance, in the 3rd century, wrote: The Church received from the apostles the practice of giving baptism also to infants, though they do not have sins of their own: so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ and that they be his members. This and other quotes from esteemed Fathers of the Church of the early centuries, such as Origen and John Chrysostom, in their writings Commentarii in Romanos 5:9 and Catechesis ad illuminandos, cannot go unheeded. The Ecumenical Council of Carthage in the year 252 AD debated the fact, not that infants should not be baptized, but that it should not be withheld from them until the eighth day of birth, as with circumcision, with the Jews. There was no record in the early Church of anyone condemning infant baptism, showing that it was common practice.
Other outstanding leaders in the early Church testifying to the Churchs practice of infant baptism are Polycarp of Smyrna (167/8 AD), Justin Martyr (died 165 AD), Cyprian of Carthage (C. 249 AD), and Hippolytus of Rome (170-236 AD), Irenaeus of Lyons (120-202 AD). St Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century taught strongly of the necessity of Baptism for wiping away original sin the sin of our first parents, which we all inherit. The 16th Synod of Carthage (418 AD) definitely condemned those who denied baptism to new-born babies.
The most common question about infant Baptism is: How can a parent or guardians faith substitute for the faith of a child? It is noteworthy that Jesus did not pose this question. When Jairus asked Jesus to raise his young daughter from the dead (Mk 5:22-43) or another father asked Jesus to expel a demon from his son (Mk 9:17-27), Jesus acted with power because of their faith, not the faith of their children.
How much more would Jesus desire to free children from an even worse bondage, the bondage of sin, and raise them to eternal life, in response to the faith of their parents and of the whole Christian community. But the Catholic Church also teaches that the parents of the baptized child must provide a faith environment that will prepare the child to make a personal commitment to Jesus Christ on reaching maturity.
Nothing is sadder than the sight of those little plots of ground in some cemeteries, particularly in America, where children have been buried in separate, often unconsecrated sections, simply because their parents adhered to denominations who do not believe in infant Baptism
No one said children cant have faith.
Futher, there is a more profound and meaningful way of interpreting “...receiving the kingdom of God as a child...”. Namely a child is trusting and does not pre judge or hold on to old ideas. If a jew at the time of Jesus were to cling to the old teachings and apply them to their new testement faith, they would NOT be coming to the proper place to receive their salvation through grace not the law.
As for baptism, remember... it is repent and be baptized. It is not ... be baptized. REPENTANCE is key and something that most modern “nice” and “feel good” religions do not want to discuss today. One has to call their old ways sin and turn from their sinful ways. Yes it is still possible to mess up and yes we continue in our faith to try and be more Christ like daily. But without REPENTANCE, it is a shower / bath, not a baptism.
Any thing less is Eisegesis.
1 Peter specfically says that you must be baptized to be saved. How can a child be saved other wise? are you prepared tosay that every child that dies before baptism is in Hell?
And that is why we need the authority of the Roman Catholic Magesterium so that we don't have some many different sects with diametically opposed beleifs all claiming to be "Bible Alone"
Nice list and thanks for giving the list, I will add it to my reference material
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