Posted on 10/06/2010 7:56:37 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Overall, Catholics liked the movie "The Nativity" but had several problems with it. For one thing they changed Scripture during the closing of the movie. On the screen they flashed the Bible passage from Luke 1:46-54. But they left out the words "for me" from middle of the sentence "The Lord has done great things for me, and Holy is his name." I don't think they should have taken that out of the Word of God, without using any elypses to show they skipped it. Another issue with the movie is they showed Mary screaming and pushing in pain as she gave birth to Jesus.
The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary's virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn't break. St. Augustine said "Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass." Pope Martin in 649 AD defined the doctrine that Mary:
Joseph was not his biological father. Jesus "father" contributed DNA and chromosones outside of marriage to Mary. That by definition is an illicit relationship constituting a bastard child. Think about it. You are a married woman. Some entity approaches you and tells you to bear a child outside of your marriage. You agree? and have the holy ghost make you pregnant. You are not married to that holy ghost. So the child is by definition a bastard child. So it doesnt take actual sex for the illicit relationship. Especially in those days...a woman showing up pregnant and blaming it on a holy ghost would have been a huge scandal. G-d would never put a human being through such a thing. Nor could he since G-d cant break his own moral laws.
Furthermore, Isaiah 7 was never about a virgin birth. It was about a child being born to a young woman who by the time he reached the age of maturity, two enemy kings would be dispatched. What good would a prophecy be to king Ahaz, that takes place 700 years in the future! And if Isaiah 7 was for a virging birth, it means that there were two virgin births since the prophecy was for king Ahaz in his day. The plain meaning of the text is that Isaiah 7 only pertained to Ahaz and the "sign" wasnt a virgin birth but the age of the child. Read it!
Jesus was born without sin because He is God. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived without sin because God’s grace saved her from sin at the moment of her conception. Mary was not born without sin because of her own actions but only because of the Grace of God.
No one is born in sin because of their own actions, but because of the actions of Adam and Eve. And I can find no Scriptural basis to support the idea that Mary was born without sin. To say that Mary was born without sin and was without sin throughout her life would be to undermine the whole point of the Cross - that humans cannot be sinless, and it took the sacrifice of a perfect Lamb (Christ) to wash away our sins. If God would take away Mary's original sin, why wouldn't He do it for all - after all, God is not a respecter of persons.
Sorry, you certainly have the right to believe as you wish, but I can't buy it. When I see people praying to Mary and to "saints", that crosses over into idolatry for me, and I can't go there.
“Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name” (Luke 1: 48-49).”
Many mis pronounce the word Blessed and make it Bless...ed meaning holy instead of what it actually means..she recognized God had blessed her with a great privilege
Words mean things :)
She needed a Savior because He saved her from the effects of Original Sin.
Why do I think that? Because in the Bible, when God addresses you by a new name, it's always very significant. It tells you what you really are: what you are in God's eyes.
There's all kinds of discussion about what Kecharitomene means (Link), but a lexical analysis of the word indicates 'being made fully acceptable,' 'being given the highest favor,' 'being made the most blessed among women' --- which is what the Angel Gabriel in fact explains her right after he addresses her as "Kecharitomene."
That cannot possibly mean she is no better than a damaged daughter of disobedient Eve. It means she has been given the highest favor. That would make her equal to Eve, not after the Fall, but at the height of Eve's blessedness before the Fall.
You may not agree with that, but it is the unprecedented fact about Mary which was acknowldged by the Angelic Salutation.
It was completely and entirely the grace of God: unmerited favor.
Of course she needed a Savior. It is the Savior's action and merit, and his alone, which did this great thing for her.
You think she was a sinner. But I see no reason to believe you, rather than the angel.
Lol, okay. I can see there is no further use discussing it. Have a good day.
Sir_Ed said it better than I.
“I don’t think there is any way to bridge the gulf between your belief and my belief, so...each of us, in our own way, will have to “take that up with God,” and only one belief will prevail.”
Ed
117 posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:17:32 PM by Sir_Ed
“Here is a Catholic view with scripture: Mary is Ever Virgin”
Great resource. Thanks.
“Well if Mary was made sinless to bear Jesus, making her a special creation, then Anne, her mother, must have been born sinless as well”
That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Mary was not born free of the taint of original sin by the grace of Anne; she was born so by the Grace of God. God does not need the grace of Anne to accomplish anything He wants to do.
I agree, this topic is rather creepy. Why even discuss the condition of Mary's hymen?
Very creepy post borderlining on preverted.
This was years ago. I personally was praying about this immaculate conception. I did not fully understand the whole definition at the time. I would pray in the spirit in front of the computer. I left the computer running as I prayed a website with a full detail came on without me touching the computer. It's a standard Catholic message. Just about how Holy God's presence demands purity. Blew me away! Truly amazing! It is now archived in the other computer. Ever since I have no doubt. Seek and you will find! Amen! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!
The last url brings us to the search page not full page-——http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm
Wow, what amazing eisegesis! Someone has taken this simple adjectival phrase and converted it into a name, and then built a whole theological construct around. Great imagination! Congratulations.
You have Q and A about the bible from John Macarthur on your website. An anti-charismatic, anti-catholic and no miracles since the apostles believer. So this is who who get inspiration from when reading the bible. Alot of people here would disagree. I believe that man is a very narrow minded individual. He went to Bob Jones university which loves to have ian paisley visit. Wow! Then a reformed episcopal church. Do they believe in the presence of the eucharist like anglican communion. That is a miracle. Also that other site is not too open to others at times. I could not get in years ago.
The early church fathers opinion? References, please. This was suggested by some medieval theologians, but doesn’t go back to the early days of the church, where the church fathers only insisted she was a virgin, i.e. no sexual intercourse with men.
As for Mary having only one child, and no relations with Joseph after Jesus’ birth, this is an ancient belief. And having lived in the third world, it is completely believable by looking at the gospels.
I figure that if she had kids, she would have gone back with them instead of wandering around Jerusalem with Joseph when Jesus was 12. Most women back then had a baby every two years or so. The Orthodox church says his “brothers” were from an elderly Joseph’s first wife, and this also fits them coming to try to get him to come home. In a traditional family, younger brothers would never criticize the actions of the older brother, who is head of the family when the father is dead. Finally, Mary was given to John at Jesus’ death, suggesting she had no kids to care for her.
I would agree if we were just talking about humans, but perhaps that’s not the case with God? I would imagine there’s no need for this choice in heaven. Please see my #108.
Perhaps a metaphor will help. If we look at man’s sinful life as falling into a hole, and Christ’s Salvation as lifting him out, then think of Christ saving Mary from falling into the hole in the first place. In both cases, Christ is the Savior. In Mary’s case it takes place at her conception, in our case, after.
It’s not perfect, but that’s my understanding.
Bless your heart, but this is not eisegesis, but lexical analysis of New Testament Greek. ALL the Greek-speaking Christians, by the way, from the writing of the Greek NT until now, have understood this to mean that Mary was "Panagia" --- fully holy and without sin. I'd recognize the Greek expertise on this one. That's what they've understood their own language to mean for 2000 years. It wasn't until 1500+ years later, that some non-Greek speakers started to say,"Hm. That doesn't fit into our theological opinons. So it's gotta means omething else."
(Incidentally, the Greek Orthodox have not "defined" exactly when the freedom from all sin was granted as a gift to Mary (except that it happened bfore the angel addressed her, on account of the form of the verb in the past-perfect, as "already accomplished." Some of the Orthodox see her as conceived with a perfect human nature; others see her as freed from sin in th moment after her conception. Thus they don't use the term "Immaculate Conception," but the term "Panagia" (all sanctified). But they're 100% agreement that it means she was without sin.
Further, consider that the angel's first weres were "the Lord is with you." Not "I, God's angel, come to you from the Lord in heaven." Not "the Lord be with you." But "the Lord IS with you." And this is before she conceived Christ, because the angle goes on to say, "you WILL conceive a son." So the All-Holy, Most-High, Supreme All-powerful God was "with her" even before the angel addressed her.
Does God dwell with the "totally depraved"? (To use Calvinist term.)
Does God dwell with sinful Galilean girls?
Or is this a totally exceptional thing: she is "the most" highly favored woman (more highly favored than Even in Eden!); the Lord is already with her, and the Lord is so fully there--- she is like the Ark of the Covenant, His Presence and His Shekinah are with her --- and so intimately, that she is going to get pregnant with His Son!
Another simple adjectival phrase... :o)
You know, this is all prefigured in the OT by the Ark of the Covenant. And sinners couldn't touch that --- as you remember ---
The Most High dwells with the pure, an only the pure. Sinful things cannot abide in His presence.
I said I've got to get going. Good discussion. God bless you! G'bye!
Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but never married in the full sense, because it was never consummated. Joseph was a good man chosen to be the head of the Holy Family and the guardian and protector of the Divine Child.
So Jesus was not a bastard or illegitimate in the eyes of God. Which is the only perspective that matters.
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