Posted on 09/06/2010 1:57:21 PM PDT by restornu
Excerpt
Question
Some of my non-LDS Christian friends have told meResponse
Almost invariably when someone claims Mormons are polytheists, they are not seeking a clear explanation of Mormon thought on the nature of God, but are simply using a word with negative connotations in our religious culture as a club to intimidate or confuse others.
Consider, for example, a conversation that Evangelical Christian author Richard Abanes, in his book Becoming Gods (pp. 107-8), claims to have had with a LDS bishop:
Abanes: "Don't you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?"
Bishop: "We certainly do, and they are one God."
Abanes: "Don't you believe the Father is a god?"
Bishop: "Yes, of course."
Abanes: "And the Son is a god?"
Bishop: "Yes"
Abanes: "And the Holy Ghost is a god."
Bishop: "Yes"
Abanes: "That's three gods."
Bishop: "No, they're one God."
The author goes on to describe that he felt he had entered some sort of Twilight Zone scenario, and goes on to declare all Mormons "polytheists." Yet, any Latter-day Saint, upon reading the conversation outlined above, would recognize the creation of a simplified version, or "strawman," of LDS belief.
One might also seriously consider how an Evangelical Christian would answer these same questions. The reality is certainly more complex than the "strawman" above would lead us to believe.
There really is not a single word that adequately captures LDS thought on the nature of God. Pertinent key technical terminology includes the following:
Monotheism (belief that there is only one God)
Tritheism (understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as distinct Gods)
Polytheism (worship of, or belief in, more than one God)
Henotheism (worship of one God without denying the existence of other Gods; also called Monolatry)
Trinitarianism (belief that God consists of three Persons in one substance)
Social Trinitarianism (belief that the oneness of the three Persons is not one of substance but is social in nature [e.g., unity of thought, etc.])
Modalism (belief that there is only one God that does not exist as three separate Persons but rather manifests itself in three different "modes" [i.e., as Father, Son, or Holy Ghost])
Usually the very same people who are pressing the case that Mormons are polytheists are some stripe of Evangelical Christians who claim to be monotheists. But Trinitarians are not Monotheists by definition (just ask a Jew or Muslim).
The facts that the LDS do not believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in substance, and believe in deification/theosis (that humans may eventually become deified and become partakers in the divine nature), has been used to paint Mormons as polytheists.
When we examine the technical terminology above, though, it becomes clear that a key point of demarcation is worship versus acknowledgment of existence.
If members of the Church worshiped an extensive pantheon like the Greeks or Romans, then the label would be appropriate.
In the context of doctrinal differences over the relationship among the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, however, or the doctrine of deification (which is a profoundly Christian doctrine and not just a Mormon one), use of the word "polytheistic" as a pejorative is both inaccurate and inappropriate.
Instead of using a single-word label, one must actually articulate the belief (using fully-developed sentences or paragraphs). The single-word label that will adequately describe the full breadth of LDS thought on the nature of God has yet to be coined.
Are Christians monotheists?
Any discussion with Jews or Muslims will quickly demonstrate no Christian is, strictly speaking, a monotheist.
One of the chief objections by Jews and Muslims is Christians are polytheists. Most brands of Christians insist on the divinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
In addition, the very word those who crafted the great ecumenical creeds used to describe the deity of Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit is "trinity," meaning three.
Additionally, they insisted the three Persons should not be confounded, as such would be deemed modalism (one of the primary heresies that led to the formation of the ecumenical creeds and various confessions).
Modalism often insists the one God merely appears to us in three different ways (i.e., as Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and this is exactly what the creeds deny.
Human deification and monotheism The New Testament has language indicating human beings can put on the divine nature and be called "gods" (see John 10:33, 34; Ps. 82:6, Deut. 10:17, etc.). They are instructed to become one with Jesus just as he is one with his Father.
The key point is to realize the existence of other beings with godly attributes has no effect on who Latter-day Saints worship. According to Jeff Lindsay, a popular LDS online apologist:
We worship God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ - not glorious angels or Abraham or Moses or John the Baptist, no matter how great they may be in the kingdom of heaven as sons of God who have become "like Christ" (1 John 3:2).
The only reasonable definition of polytheism requires that plural gods be worshiped - but the beings that Christ calls "gods" are not who we worship at all. In terms of worship, we are properly called monotheists.[1] Additionally, there is abundant evidence of deification being taught by various commonly accepted Christians.
If belief in theosis makes one a polytheist, many Christians would have to be so labeled - including such figures as C. S. Lewis and John Calvin. Clearly, this is not the way in which the term "polytheist" is normally used, but critics of the Church are often willing to be inconsistent if the Church can be made to look alien or "unchristian."
"Monotheism" is sufficiently broad to include the kind of oneness enjoyed by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as well as that promised to those who become one with them when fully sanctified.
Conclusion Latter-day Saints are not polytheists in any reasonable sense of the term that does not also exclude most other Christians who deny the Modalist heresy. Trying to reduce LDS thought to a simple term or "slogan" in this way distorts LDS doctrine.
The Saints worship one God. There are no competing divinities in whom they put their trust. LDS scripture contains such language (1 Nephi 13:41, 2 Nephi 31:21, Mosiah 15:1-5, Alma 11:26-37, Morm. 7:7, D&C 20:28, Mos. 1:20), but it is qualified in somewhat the same way that Creedal Christians have found a way of saying "three"—as in Trinity—and yet also one.
>> If we believe (as many of us do) that there is One True God then He is the One who created the Universe — including extraterrestrials (who are terrestrials in their own planets).
Now THERE is an interesting theory.
Ping me when you learn more. Thanks. <<
It isn’t a theory, it is an irrefutable conclusion.
We need but posit some simple facts:
1) God created the Universe. If this is not true, then all other discussion is rendered irrelevant.
2) God created all beings (and matter and energy) in the Universe. This must be true if 1) is true. If 1) is not true then this is rendered irrelevant.
3) Any being on any planet anywhere in the Universe MUST have been created (directly or indirectly) by God (assuming 1) and 2) — see the previously argued contrary result accordingly.
4) “Terrestrial” means “of this planet.” Extraterrestrials (if they exist) are, by definition, Terrestrial in their context. It isn’t a theory, it is a linguistic fact. If extraterrestrials do NOT exist, the point is moot.
There is nothing more to “learn.”
Are these gods on other planets on an equal footing as the What does the scriptures say and if join heirs they must go somewhere and work in the Kingdom of the Lord and is it not promise they will be **** thank you for your question
Psalms 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Revelation 1
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 JOHN to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
It seems as the Lord's universe expands there is need for those to be Kings.
About you would not be eating with Mormons!
“Conclusion Latter-day Saints are not polytheists in any reasonable sense of the term”
Yet, is it not true that Mormons teach that their are other gods on other worlds?
Is it not true that Mormons teach that every one of their gods will have a female goddess to reproduce with? Is she not a god?
I had a Mormon on FR tell me there are an infinite number of gods. That is polytheism or at least henotheism...
Restornu, as a Mormon who started this thread, would you discuss each of these points?
thank you.
ampu
Now THAT is an interesting angle to say the least. we will have to get into very esoteric linguistics -- when the Bible says "everyone" does it mean "all humans" or "all beings in the Universe"?
My basic point doesn't waver though -- it doesn't MATTER! We are humans and God's and Jesus' Word are applicable to us irrespective if it matters to Seti Omicron 8.
Theologists will tell you that it is a fun late-night sophomore exercise to discuss and debate the effect a real-life "The Day The Earth Stood Still", "Contact" or even "War of the Worlds" would have on Christianity (or many other religions).
But God speaks to us as individuals in the Bible -- directly and then through His Son. He tells us how to live our life and how to treat each other. Nothing in the Universe can or should change that message.
In our solar system, the answer varies, since some don't count Uranus any more but in the entire universe? Who knows or even can guess.
*** opertive word MAY be!
I would not call that a creed it has been called a couplet
Joseph Smith was giving a sermon at a funeral and he had this insight. but sinse than not much detail was given it has been repeated by other apostles
1 Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 10
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
In regards to Psalm 82...
“The human judges in Israel served as God’s judicial representatives among His people. The Hebrew word translated “rulers” (NASB) or “gods” (NIV) is elohim (lit. strong ones). This word usually describes God in the Old Testament, but sometimes it refers to the strong ones in Israel, namely the human rulers or authorities (cf. 45:6; Exod. 21:6; 22:8–9). It does not refer to angels here (cf. Eph. 6:12) as the Syriac translators thought. This is clear from the context. It does not refer to the gods of the heathen either (cf. 1 Cor. 10:20).”
Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible (Ps 82:1). Galaxie Software.
In the Ten Commandments does it not says
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Romans 8:17 - does not say Christians become gods.
Revelation 1:6 - “made us kings and priests” - correct translation “kingdom” (corporately as Christians) and priests (individually). Nothing about becoming gods. Same in Revelation 5:10.
Nothing in any of the verses you posted says there are other gods or that Christians will become gods.
best,
ampu
So Mormons do become Gods?
I repsect that but if you read carefully others do not agree on your definition as you do not agree with the LDS definition and still I respect you understanding with out trying to tear it down.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!
You second question personally I believe so I also know not every mystery of God has neen told or given to man so can one feel a 100% on the topics that it might not be conclusive.
For now the important thing is it not to honor the Lord by keeping His commandments and doing His will someday a verdict will be known on many mystery.
You ask about Exodus 20 - the commandment to have no other gods before me...
Israel was surrounded by nations that worshipped idols. God told them they were to worship the true God - Him - not the false gods - idols.
best,
ampu
LOL
“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.”
*** opertive word MAY be!
I would not call that a creed it has been called a couplet
Joseph Smith was giving a sermon at a funeral and he had this insight. but sinse than not much detail was given it has been repeated by other apostles
__________________________________________________
Well lets see what these mormon apostles had to say after Joey Smith gave his sermon at the King Follett funeral...
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
(Joseph Smith, Sunday, April 7, 1844.)
Apostle Lorenzo Snow later encapsulated this doctrine in his famous couplet. The 1984 LDS priesthood manual, Search These Commandments, referred to Lorenzo Snow’s statement:
President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder:
“The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you. . .” (Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 151-152)
In the 1989 Ensign is an article on the distinctive doctrines of Joseph Smith. In it we read:
Though most people who believe the Bible accept the idea of a Godhead composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith revealed an understanding of the Godhead that differed from the views found in the creeds of his day. . . .
The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling.”. . . As God’s children, we may become gods ourselves through Christ’s atonement and the plan of salvation, being joint heirs of Christ of “all that [the] Father hath.” . . . Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands beside God the Father.
The LDS doctrine of Heavenly Father has led one recent commentator to write, “The Mormons espouse a radical, anthropomorphic conception of God that sets them far apart from other religions” (Ensign, January 1989, p. 27
However, when Smith’s sermon was referenced in the 2007 manual, Teachings of the Presidents: Joseph Smith, it was carefully edited to minimize the teaching that God has not always been God. Here is the part of the sermon that is used:
God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. . . . (Teachings of the Presidents: Joseph Smith, 2007, p. 221).
In the chapter heading of Teachings of the Presidents: Brigham Young there is another statement of this doctrine:
President Brigham Young taught the Latter-day Saints to worship God the Father and address prayers to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. He taught further that God the Father was once a man on another planet who “passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 29).
People often read these quotes without seeing the implication of plural gods.
If God was once a mortal on another world then he has not always been God. This would necessitate another God being in charge of that world.
In the current LDS manual Gospel Principles we read:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. . . it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave”. . .
This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 305).
Thus we see that the doctrine is still an integral part of Mormonism even if it is not clearly delineated in all of their doctrinal books.
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no110.htm
So Mormons do become Gods?
***
So man can become god?
I would say small “g” but when one ponders this all spirits are eternal spirits never die
Some gods some are wicked, some gods good and some are exalted beings, some are angels etc.
Will man ever become as great as the Godhead NO!
These are myteries and for some hard to understand when they demand meat but still can only receive milk!
if they were ready for meat they would not get upset and contend on this issue.
It is the Holy Spirit who teaches about the Lord mysteries when the student is ready to receive.
I believe Christians need only one book. This is how I separate most cults in my mind. I believe in one God in three persons. I will never become a ‘god’. I am adopted into the family of God by the saving grace of the gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. I think one needs to be correct on this to believe correctly about saving grace.
FAIR, a non-profit organization, posts a disclaimer (albeit in very fine print) at the bottom of their homepage, viewable at www.fairlds.org:
FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.
===== God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.====
So Mormons believe their god is the god of other gods?
The problem is that is a simplistic reading resty
Lets look at the end of the psalm you quote
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
This psalm does not say there are other gods ... it says they will die like OTHER men..
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
If jesus is the FIRST begotten..of what dead resty? If he is the first..how can there be other gods that begat the father god?
It seems as the Lord’s universe expands there is need for those to be Kings.
Scripture tells us we will be kings and rulers here on this earth resty .nothing said of other worlds or planets
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
The Hebrew word for god is complex and does not always mean GOD or a god
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
Alma 11:26-29, 38-39,
“And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And they answered, No…Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth…”
I know gnosticism when I see it and when looking at your post36 I see it all over the place.
I think people may be dancing around the primary questions concerning monotheism and I’m not sure why.
Does the deity whom the LDS proposes for belief possess a physical body and if so how did that deity acquire his physical body? Did he receive it from someone else? Did the deity you identify as the father receive anything from anyone else? Does the father have a wife and who is her creator?
Who created Kolob and where was the father before kolob was created?
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