Posted on 09/05/2010 4:02:11 PM PDT by rosettasister
Not baiting you.
Showing those who are watching your error.
The “quotes” you posted and the real words of scripture prove how you manipulate. It is one thing to error, another all together to quote Jesus as saying something that He didn’t say, and then try to defend it. Just WOW!
Good Night
Words like "false" "wrong" "error" "misinformed" etc. do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Wow. Anyway...
Your error is thinking your job is to “correct me” instead of forthrightly dealing with the danger of the false teaching of praying down principalities.
You served your master well tonight.
To: TwoLegsGood
From: wwcj
Sorry for the personal attack. I was out of line.
Good Night
I know a man (a professor, retired pastor, PhD in medicine, counselor) who has been involved with several "deliverances." I place the term in quotes not to doubt them, but to clarify that most people call them exorcisms. I am a former Catholic and current evangelical Protestant - and, to be honest, I think the current Protestant church uses the other term because it does not want to use the same term the Catholics use.
Anyway......
We cannot know how demons look, or be sure of their names, as you said - you are wrong on your last characterization. We certainly can see at least part of "what they do" first hand, and that is indisputable. They destroy, hurt, blaspheme, hate, and enact every type of cruelty on their victims that they can. I have seen some manifestations of demonic influence when in contact with people I knew very closely, although not all of them listed here. Certain behaviors and traits are also common to possession (voices, unearthly screams, languages the victim does not know, super human strength, knowledge of the future, knowledge of secret sins in the those present in the room, etc).
Only a warped theology could imagine a mere human in direct confronation with Satan.
I understand your caution and practical carefulness with this statement, and I cannot fault you for it. I think it is perfectly correct to have a very healthy fear for Satan and all evil. Christ, however, is very powerful. Us mere humans (Paul said) will judge angels. We are weak, but in our weakness, God is strong.
When properly prepared, we are incredible instruments of Christ's power (note that I didn't say our power, but His).
"And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
Luke 10:18
Who did that? Well, ultimately, we both know God did that. But, what happened? These dirty, mostly uneducated, sinful men from Galilee caused Satan to fall like lightening from heaven with Christ's authority behind them.
Other demons, Christ warned, could be driven out with prayer and fasting.
I don't go around taking on Satan, or do I? Doesn't scripture tell me:
"Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
James 4:7
Wait. Satan flees, from me?
Yes.
I think you don't really appreciate the full power of Christ.
I understand what you are saying and agree for the most part. I believe we are approaching explanation from two different sides but converging to the same limit.
The three passages I cited are the sum total of what Paul says ... submit to God, resist the devil, stand ... resist/stand is a passive act and the Greek word is used in all three passages.
Another point worth mentioning is your example of Satan falling like lightning ... you are assuming that what the apostles did in the gospels is normative for today. I certainly do not. If we are to go around confronting Satan and casting out demons then what about all the other stuff? Where are believers raising the dead? Walking on water? Etc?
Now no doubt Cho’s followers will say “Yeah, we do that” but it always seems to be in some jungle in a third world country where no one is there to take names; i.e. its made up to satisfy the charismatics yearning for greater and greater stories of Gods power acting today through them.
This also brings a very serious question into focus: “What is the source for sound doctrine?” Experience and practice? ... or Biblical exposition? I would say Biblical exposition ... experience and practice must take a back seat and if a person has an experience that does not line up with the Bible; it should be rejected as genuine from God. Many people will come to Him in that day and say “Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in Your name ... and He said ‘I never knew you’ “ ... we know the outcome in that case.
Excellent post.
God Bless
Dude you didnt even read what I wrote. In Jesus Name implies just that: Jesus Name is above all other names. He is above sin and death because of His victory at the cross.
Dr. Chos victory in Jesus should be celebrated not scorned.
Dude you didnt even read what I wrote. In Jesus Name implies just that: Jesus Name is above all other names. He is above sin and death because of His victory at the cross.
Dr. Chos victory in Jesus should be celebrated not scorned.
Dude you didnt even read what I wrote. In Jesus Name implies just that: Jesus Name is above all other names. He is above sin and death because of His victory at the cross.
Dr. Chos victory in Jesus should be celebrated not scorned.
oops reply button got stuck sorry.
I agree with you that we are more close than apart on this one, and thanks for being so civil.
I have to take your examples one at a time here, because you lumped them all together.
For one thing, the Apostles didn't have the Holy Spirit while Christ was with them, because......they had Christ with them. Before Jesus ascended, he promised them the Holy Spirit would come, and it did (as told in Acts). Today, do we as believers have the Holy Spirit with us - directly?
Certainly! Anyone who does not believe that is not a Christian, but plays one on TV.
Walking on water? That was Christ alone. No apostle ever did that.
Raising the dead? Beside Lazarus, and Christ Himself, I can't think of anyone else who has been literally raised from the dead. I am probably mistaken on this, but help me out here.
Casting out demons?
Whoa. There are MANY examples of this one in the bible, in historical Christian events, and contemporary events.
Lots and lots.
So, I think you are muddying the waters a bit here by lumping everything together in order to build a straw man that says we as believers don't have power (when given by Christ) to confront evil itself.
Is this something to be taken lightly, improperly, and carelessly? No way. Ever. Evil is not something you dance around with.
But, our God (and I am convinced you are firm believer) can be given that authority through Him if our hearts are pure, we are prepared, and God wills it.
Does Christ rebuke false believers on the last day? You bet. I find it interesting that they try and argue with Him on that day that did something in His name. It sounds like (and it is) desperation.
It is amazing that Christ lets us know this event ahead of time.
As long as you continue to worship yourself, your vanity will prevent your fellowship with God the Father of Jesus Christ.
I’m confused where this idea of self worship has been displayed but thanks for the backhanded personal abuse.
Hi. Okay. How about you explain for us, in detail, what the “victory” was that your Dr. Cho accomplished?
P.S. Nottadude
So, I think you are muddying the waters a bit here by lumping everything together in order to build a straw man that says we as believers don't have power (when given by Christ) to confront evil itself.
I never said we dont have power through the HS to confront evil, but I am not talking about some generic evil like sin in your life or habital things. I'm talking about direct confrontation of Satan and his minions. We are not to actively confront Satan ... when we encounter him we passively submit to God and let Him do the warfare.
And Im not sure how you figure that the 3 epistle passages constitute a strawman; I know you are familar with the three passages mentioned. Do a search on Satan, devil, demon, serpent, etc. and look at what is taught in the epistles and what relates to spiritual warfare (i.e., dealing with Satan). Its just the three ... there is a common theme: submit to God, allow yourself to be strong (passive voice in the Ephesians passage) resist/stand against the devil ...
There is no conjuring up angelic forces to aid in the battle, there is no magical phrase that we can envoke to mystically cause the demons to "tell the truth."
There is a huge difference between "I submit to your Lordship Father and I humbly ask and pray that you remove this offending spirit for your kingdoms sake" ... AND ... "I command you demon in the name of Jesus to depart" ...
The former approach is taught in the epistles, the latter is not.
Thank you for this discussion.
I posted a couple links to this thread on my blog.
RS
Researcher Tom Horn outlined connections between transhumanism, the ‘Watchers,’ and stargates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCih3zLGgKw
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